EP:395 | [Timely Classic 119] Understanding Duck Migration

This week we sit down and talk ducks with Dr. Ryan Askren, a waterfowl ecologist/researcher from the University of Arkansas at Monticello, and the legendary Jim Ronquest from Drake Waterfowl Systems.  There is much to learn about the migration habits from the data that GPS transmitters have provided. We also dig deep into habitat, forage preferences, nocturnal instincts, and many other questions duck hunters ask around the campfire.  We also key in on the management of red oaks and their importance in the wetland areas. It’s a fascinating discussion. 

Listen, Learn and Enjoy!

Show Notes: 
From the Gamekeeper Butchery :  https://gamekeepermeats.blog/2022/03/24/pasta-alla-norcina-with-duck-bacon-sausage/
Nativ Nurseries Duck Habitat Spotlight : https://www.nativnurseries.com/products/buttonbush-seedlings-for-sale-cephalanthus-occidentalis  
University of Arkansas Monticello : https://www.uamont.edu/academics/CFANR/waterfowlhabitat.html
Drake Waterfowl : https://www.drakewaterfowl.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, I'm Jeff Foxworthy, and welcome to Gamekeeper Podcast. If you want to learn more about farming for wildlife and habitat management, then buddy, you are in the right place. Join the Gamekeeper crew direct from Mossy Oakland Enhancement Studio as they discuss the latest wildlife and habitat management practices, news, and of course honey. There's no telling what you'll learn, but I'm gonna tell you, I bet it's interesting. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_06 0:31

We're live in three, two, one.

SPEAKER_07 0:34

All right, everybody, here we are, West Point, Mississippi. We got a room full. Everybody's excited. Dudley and Lanny are matching. Y'all must have something today.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Pants, shirt, everything. Really? I mean, we got this same color stuff.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Yeah, but Dudley's got a little more camo consciousness to it.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

I've got more flair. I got on bottom line.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Yeah, white.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

Huh?

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Your logo is white. His is like Camo embedded.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

I'm not turkey hunting. That's all right.

SPEAKER_07 1:01

Well, black, you know, Lanny has really started wearing black, y'all. But he's like Johnny Cash or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

I don't know about all that. You do wear black a lot. Could be the Halloween coming out anymore.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

I do wear black a lot. I do. I wear camo or black because when I stain it, you can't tell. You're good to go.

SPEAKER_07 1:18

And you and you stain it. That would be good.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

That would be I'm the best guy. I'm always, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:24

So looking down the table, the boss is here. Anytime we're talking ducks and we're talking oak trees, Toxie's gonna slide in for sure. That's a guarantee, uh, Dudley. So uh he's it's a tribute to you.

SPEAKER_09 1:36

We'll try not to get too gibberjabbery.

SPEAKER_07 1:39

Yeah. So and sitting well, look, guys, we've got two great guests here today. So we've had Jim Ron Quest once before from Drake Waterfowl.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

And it took us what, three months to recover.

SPEAKER_07 1:50

That's right. So Jim, as we discussed uh that that last time, has brought a guest with him, and uh we're real excited to have Ryan ask you. And and Ryan Askren.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Askren. We're real excited to have Ryan Askren.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

He was just so excited. Not the ones that's gonna say, hey, can we ask you these questions?

SPEAKER_04 2:08

And so he just Bobby is notorious for asking somebody how to pronounce their name and then still messing it up.

SPEAKER_07 2:14

I am, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Well you you have that on a big job.

SPEAKER_07 2:17

I I did that earlier. I said, how do you pronounce your name? And I've still messed it up. So I don't know what's the matter with me there.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

The spirit of Uncle Bud. Hey, there you go.

SPEAKER_07 2:26

Tell us a little bit about yourself. You're a biologist, or and you you've you're interested in a lot of things we are. Yeah, I think he's an ecologist, isn't he?

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Waterfowl ecologist is is what I would call myself. So not a biologist. Well, they're roughly the same, but more interested in how animals are interacting with animals. Labels, labels, Bob.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Yeah, that's that's right. Okay. It's the wisdom, the knowledge, the insight, the experience. Not the not the labels. Thank you, Mr. Noato. Well, you're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you for addressing me like that.

SPEAKER_07 2:56

So we uh uh look, you're from Arkansas, uh the the Arkansas Monticello, is that right? And you're you're uh what all do you do?

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Yeah, so I'm a researcher instructor. I'm working for the Five Oaks Ag Research and Education Center uh through the University of Arkansas Monticello. So it's just a private-public kind of partnership with uh Five Oaks Duck Hunting Lodge with the university, uh really getting at some some waterfowl and waterfowl habitat questions.

SPEAKER_07 3:24

Well, when we were preparing for this, Lanny, if you remember, what you know, we've got redheaded Rob over here and that was working and helping us in it. And he put some questions out on the social media. And I I was so impressed. Our listeners asked some fantastic questions. I mean, they really we got some smart listeners. No doubt. I don't know that we're gonna have time to answer all these questions, but one of them was what's the difference in a biologist and an ecologist?

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Yeah, that's that's a good question. I'm not sure I have a great answer, but yeah, ecologists are really more interested in the relationship of of the kind of organism, the animal, with the environment, interacting with the environment, whereas uh biology kind of implies more focused on that organism.

unknown 4:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

That's a good answer.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

I was gonna say the difference was like an E and a C versus a B and a I.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

That too. Yeah, it's just uh it's uh one of those ologies.

SPEAKER_09 4:15

That's the kind of question you get in college where you have to write the exact definition down of each. Yeah. And that's why I didn't do very well.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

That's one of those classes I didn't do in Quellin either.

SPEAKER_07 4:25

Well, we're gonna we're gonna talk about uh migrations, we're gonna ask you about some red oak issues. We've got a lot to talk about. So uh so before we get this thing started, Mike, you uh uh over there are you texting? What do you got going on over there? But weather. Well, that's a good thing to do. Speaking of weather, if look if we don't get some rain.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Don't talk about it. We've got good things on the horizon. Don't talk about it. Boy, it's when your team has got a one-run lead in the ninth, do you talk about it? Does your pitcher got a no-hitter in the seventh? Do you talk about it? Don't talk about rainfall today. We've got a hundred. That's it. No more, no more to talk about it. You were right, penalty.

SPEAKER_07 5:03

Good gracious, boss. So, Mac, would you uh well we've got a commercial with that this podcast is brought to you by who?

SPEAKER_06 5:10

Apex Ammunition. Oh, my buddy is in Columbus. We talk about saving the ducks and duck habitat, but we also we we also like shooting ducks too. And so they've they've actually partnered with Mossy Oak on this with a Shattergrass Habitat blend, which is still over tungsten. Uh the box is super cool. I mean, they they make a superior product. I mean, it's all hand loaded uh right across the river from us over here in West Point. I mean, they're just great people, veteran-owned. Uh, and they're I mean, I think their shells speak for themselves. Look, their shells are awesome.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

Hey, you shoot better with them, so I mean, it makes you a better one.

SPEAKER_07 5:44

I you know, I've seen Lanny be able to hit more ducks with them. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

If they are just as aimed, then they're worth the showtime's coming up, buddy. Yeah, Bobby. It is down there.

SPEAKER_07 5:56

I can't we always have so much fun. Yeah, we do. That that's uh the the apex ammunition guys, if you hadn't tried it, it's worth it.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

It's amazing. I can vouch for it. I've used it in Canada, shot open weekend specs this past weekend, and it is amazing what that load will do.

SPEAKER_07 6:12

Toxie, did your phone ring? The phone buff. Oh to go to go to Canada?

SPEAKER_02 6:18

No, not at not to Ohio also either. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:22

I was there too.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

He has already liked it. Yeah, behind our back were some of our co-workers, some of our closest brethren have shattered feathers with him already. Well, I know who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_07 6:34

I think he prevented that brethren from being on the podcast last week, as a matter of fact. Good. I'm sure that's exactly when it went down.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Highly possible, highly possible. But I was a guest also, so I had nothing to say on it. All right. Had nothing to say on that.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

You could have said no.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Well, I could have had.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Well, did y'all have a good hunt?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

We did. We did. We had a great hunt. As a matter of fact, it's you don't think of northern Ohio as a waterfall and hotspot along the coast of Mars and the Great Lakes, but it was amazing. Very amazing. Quite good.

SPEAKER_07 7:03

Quite good.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Any jack minor bands in the No Jack Miner bands, but I was looking for one. We killed a couple black ducks. Pentails were you had to be careful not to shoot too many pentails. Um and it was really good.

SPEAKER_07 7:14

Those black ducks. Taxi, I always think about you said that when when I first moved here, you said we used to kill black ducks all the time.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

They were just almost as much as mallards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:24

I wonder what happened with that.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

No, I remember it too. Well, maybe we can get into the 80s. There were lots of them around here. We'd see them every time you went.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

I think the first duck I killed was black duck.

SPEAKER_07 7:36

Going back, the apex ammunition.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

The thought these guys put in the ammunition. I mean, the studies they're doing with this stuff. I mean, next level, so yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:46

Good stuff. So moving on to blood on the biologic, there was one uh thing I wanted to point out. The state of Georgia has now made it legal to harvest or kill whatever you manage raccoons 12 months out of the year. So good. Uh that that's a step in the right direction for our turkeys. And uh yeah, I don't think I realized you couldn't kill a turkey 12 months. I mean kill a raccoon twelve months. I hope you can't, by I didn't realize. So it how in Mississippi.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Some states, I know I remember hearing the podcast that Cuzz did with Chuck, and he's like, that's one of the first things he did when he kind of took over in Alabama. So I know that one's okay. I'm not sure about Mississippi. Yeah. I think they still have limitations, but there shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_07 8:30

Well, hats off to Georgia for doing that. And then Chuck, if you did that at Al in Alabama, hats off to you there. Terry Drury guys killed a deer this past week that's the biggest deer he's ever, and that's saying so. That's the statement. That is saying so.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

If it's a Drury, it's biggest ever, it's big. It's big.

SPEAKER_07 8:47

239 pounds after it was dressed. Wow. He it pushing 300 pounds. He he referred to it as a slob.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

When you said 239, I was fixing to hear net or something after that. I was like, what? Yeah, I don't know what the score.

SPEAKER_07 9:00

I don't know what it scored.

SPEAKER_09 9:01

Yeah, when you say slob, it it's a big deer.

SPEAKER_07 9:04

It was a big deer. Wow. So congrats to him. And there's a guy I wanted to give a shout out. I don't know this guy, but I like the way he's thinking. There's a guy in Minnesota that that uh caught the state record muskie and he released it. And I uh he measured it, and now some of these states are allowing people to measure fish and then release so the fish doesn't have to be killed like it used to have to be. Wow. So I wanted to shout out to uh uh Minnesota for allowing that. And this guy, his name uh is Eric Back. He caught a 58 and a half inch muskie uh and and measured it, did everything right, and then released it. So nice congrats. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

That's that's uh most fishermen down there cut catch a 58-inch muskie, they're gonna eat it. You know, they catch a south.

SPEAKER_04 9:50

Four-inch musky, they're gonna eat it right there or a fish.

SPEAKER_07 9:52

Yeah. Dudley, you got anything to add to the blood on the biologic? Uh Landy, you got anything? Uh Sam. Sam Color's on the board.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

He's sure. Yeah. Ghost Sam. Imagine that. Yeah, imagine that. He's got a pretty good spot up there. I'd say. So gotta give a shout-out to Sam.

SPEAKER_09 10:08

Deer had some cool characters.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

What do you call it? The turkey foot buck or something? Yeah, turkey foot buck. Turkey foot buck, so yeah. So wish those guys well.

SPEAKER_07 10:16

Sure. All right, before we start asking questions, one more thing I want to point out, Landy. Can you tell me about this boatload of chips thing that's going on?

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Man, look, we've got a great uh promotion going on with our partners at Uncle Ray's and Sea Arch. So they're giving away a boatload of chips, literally, so it's a Sea Arc. It's got a Suzuki 25 on it, I believe. Uh, of course, better in Bottom Land, all tricked out in bottom land, and it comes with a bunch of chips. So uh run themalseyoak.com. You can see the landing page there to get entered uh to win.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah, and I mean I have to shout out to Uncle Ray's. They're not only a great promotional partner, great business people, they make a great product.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

I I just ate a half a bag before I came in here.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Honestly, when the samples came in, I mean, you know, I was expecting, you know, that it'd be pretty good. Yeah, whatever, but they are really, really good potato chips. Yeah, yeah. So I have to give them a shout out. And I'm uh actually I gave up potato chips for Lent Land. That's how addicted I am everyday potato chip guy.

SPEAKER_04 11:10

So you like the obsessed or the bottom line barbecue?

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yeah, the all chip. You like them all the obsessed all dress, yeah. The all dress. The bottom the barbecue's great. Yeah, but those all dressed are and they're unique. Yeah, they're delicious if you can find them somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

I like the home with some. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_07 11:26

Yeah, Ryan, we'll get you some rugby fan road. Yeah, we sure we sure will. So, Mac, I want you to pay attention, need you to join in. You're a very you inquisitive person. But so let's get this thing started. Uh I'd like to start with understanding the migration a little bit. And when these ducks start coming south, is it but what what makes them decide to do so? Is it the length of the day? Or what can you explain that, please?

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Yeah, yeah. So a lot of it's it's and we talk in in kind of straight lines a lot, but nature never works in straight lines. So this is kind of a generalization. But a lot of it's photo periods, so they're sensing the day length and and figuring out uh getting ready, kind of staging, prepping for that migration. But then the actual immediate cue a lot of times is is weather changes. Uh that's right now. I mean, it's gonna be like what 80 degrees here today. Yeah, or just not seeing. We've got a bunch of transmitters up in in Canada and North Dakota, and they're just they're hanging out, they're they're warm and happy right now.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

I don't blame us pretty hot yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

Yeah, I would I wouldn't want to be down here if I were a mallet duck yet. Food plots appreciated though.

SPEAKER_07 12:27

Yeah, do they wait as long as they can in in terms of staging with other ducks, or does it that freeze up there? Does uh you said photo period, so I I'm listening.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

I'm not paying attention to that, but yep, so we we have some that are gonna move with that photo period. Uh Mr. Jody Pagan always calls them Halloween ducks, so usually we get a good push from Allards into Arkansas uh right around Halloween, right around now. Uh so they're kind of coming no matter what, whether it's freezing up there or not. And then there's there's just a gradient in between that. So there are some that are gonna stay up there till freeze up, till they get snow on the ground, and and there's some that are just gonna kind of start trickling down on their own. So it's it's the whole spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

There's also a got a buddy of mine has an opinion on the halfway point between the fall equinox and the winter solstice. That that photo period time right there creates it, and he can pick it on his farm year to year, he always gets a big influx of ducks and geese at that same time. So I think that's all calendar-driven to some degree. Weather pushes that somewhat, Ryan, and I talked about it all the way over here. The the difference between photo period and how weather helps drive that.

SPEAKER_07 13:34

Interesting. So can you explain what you're talking about? Just you went through that show. I know, no, no, no. What would the date be this year?

SPEAKER_04 13:42

What is the date of that? I'd have to look at it.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

So I was I was looking at our transmitter movements last year, and it I think it was right around November 10th last year, is when a lot of our mallards were were really triggering that migration back south. So that's the midway point between Oh, the winter solstice.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

So winter solstice is December 21st, right? It's always the shortest day of the year. So when is the fall equinox? It's has it just hit?

SPEAKER_06 14:08

September the twenty second.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

So what's that? Whatever that halfway point is. So case in short, give a shout out to whatever in the Bill Byers hunter farm. That's uh that's kind of their deal. That's when their numbers are typically the highest year in, year out. Interesting.

SPEAKER_07 14:22

Yeah, that really is. So as these ducks start migrating south, do they imprint on certain farms, certain areas, and then revisit those h historically? Is it is imprinting a big deal?

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Yeah, yeah, and I I I struggle using the term imprinting, but yeah, I mean they're incredible at at really kind of uh assessing the benefit of a given site and being able to remember where where they were able to get that good food, where they were able to escape pressure, and they're able to return to those same sites. Uh and we've we've seen incredible uh ducks and geese. I mean, returning to the same nest bowl, returning to the same migratory stopover. So yeah, there's definitely if if they hit a good resource on the way down, then they're probably gonna hit it again the next year.

SPEAKER_04 15:06

But as far as waterfowl is concerned, um how many years would you need a you know a quality food source to really make a difference on imprinting?

SPEAKER_03 15:15

But a new property? Yeah, that's a great question. We were talking on the way up here. I mean, it it seems like there is historic uh kind of core use areas where ducks year after year are coming back, even when the landscape changes, uh they're still gonna come back to that same spot. Uh so it it can last a long time. I mean, you can still lose it pretty quick if you lose that food in terms of like developing a new property. It takes a couple of years, uh, especially in a lot of it depends on whether you're in kind of a wetland complex area. Sure, or if you have access to it. Yeah, if you're on kind of yeah, no, that's a good question. I don't have a great answer to.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

It it all depends.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

We all we it all depends.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

We're not in like a core complex, but we are certainly have our wetland travel corridors here. It just seems like to me, watching it totally unscientific, but for the last at least intensively for say 20 years, there is a certain amount that are just coming. Come hell or high water. As long as we have water and food, you know, it doesn't matter how hot it is or anything, they're coming. And sometimes they show up just as early as we have water. And if we don't get a lot of weather, that's pretty much what we're stuck with, give or take some. Yeah. And then there's a lot more that are like gonna come if they're forced to and aren't if they aren't forced to. And it seems to me, I even remember Dale telling me, he seems to think that that's more of a condition in the Mississippi flyway than any of 'em. Interesting. That's you know, his in his in his opinion, even of course it was a bottle just by trade too. That for that the ducks in the Mississippi flyway just don't generally speaking, not an absolute here. Generally don't a lot of 'em don't want to have to go any further south than they're forced to because the kind of foods we have with leftover ag don't weather the winter as well as a lot of native grasses and foods and stuff. And so they're over time they've learned they're going back through a biological desert if they go real far south. Now that was just his f you know, his philosophy, I guess, on it. But it does seem like every year, and of course we're not as cold as we've been, it just seems like we're getting more and more of that seems to be the trend. There's some you're gonna get, and you know, with the winters, the people in the far south, they better be uh treating with kinning gloves and not not worrying about pound, pound, pound, or you're not gonna have them sooner or later. You know, in my in my humble opinion. Now, maybe we'll have a really cold winter and it'll change back, but uh the only time we've seen in big numbers here in the last three years was that super hard freeze and paperware. Yeah. And I thought we weren't gonna have them again, and then we just were covered up for about a week.

SPEAKER_07 18:08

So, Ron, these uh we we hear you know, w we're all we all have these conversations when we're in the duck line and we're not seeing many ducks or whatever. There's a thought that maybe the people north of us, and I'm saying like Tennessee and southern Illinois and Missouri are are now planting so much stuff that these ducks aren't having to move down as far. Is there can any credence to that?

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Yeah, that's that's something that uh we're looking at with research uh a lot right now. So just kind of anecdotally from our transmitter data, it's it's amazing how many kind of warm water habitats and and dry feeding ducks have, anyways, up there. So we have so many transmitters that stop on like power plant cooling lakes, uh, even like settling ponds for for local sewage treatment plants. Uh so that's something we've definitely definitely talked about, looking at how kind of stopover habitat use on fall migration, how much of that's actually like planted flooded corn, like everybody talks about in the south, and how much is is other habitat. And it's I mean, they're incredibly adaptable, so they're good at good at finding food and avoiding avoiding risk. So it's it's kind of like what Toxie's saying, it's they can stay north and kind of hold out there and get the food they need and and not have to move further south. And I I don't know how much of that is actually being influenced by planting versus just food on the landscape.

SPEAKER_07 19:26

Do you have an opinion?

SPEAKER_03 19:28

I I do. Uh I I don't think it's influencing duck movements in a serious way. I think I think disturbance and and I mean basically predation risk, honor risk of harvest mortality in the south, it's probably a bigger driver of pushing them up there as opposed to stuff holding them there. But and I mean there's I think it's hard to argue that we haven't seen some kind of changes in weather patterns and the amount of snow that we're getting at those latitudes.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

So we've got to step in and say we have one of the foremost turkey biologists, not only of today, but of all time. And I won't even have to call his name, people know. But he said the number one influencer hunting pressure. And then we had deer now recently, and the number one influencer changed nocturnal to not hunting pressure. And then we have him here today, and he's telling us clearly, and he's obviously spent his life in research, not just you know, watching things like us, hunting pressure. So everybody need, you know, sooner or later you need to listen, and how we approach makes such a big difference in not only the our enjoyment of the resource, but the perpetuation that we love and conservation of the resource.

SPEAKER_07 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 20:46

So to that, w uh being the ecologist that you are, do you have an opinion on how a guy should approach hunting? Should it be of should a property only be allowed to be hunted once or twice a week? Or are there you have ideas there?

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Yeah, yeah, we're uh we're looking at a lot of that with research. So we've got research going on in White River looking at sanctuary use by one of our graduate students, and we're kind of looking at that in the private realm as well. And I mean, ideally, if you have a big enough property, you just leave a part of that property alone and just leave that as called inviolate sanctuary. You don't go in there, you never disturb them, you don't drive past them, you just leave them there. Uh if if you don't have that, having kind of temporal sanctuary, so only hunting like say two or three days out of the week is good. Um, but really ideally, kind of the rule is you you leave 80% and you hunt 20. Uh, in my opinion, would be would be the best. I know that's not just not possible for most people.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

I love hearing that though, because that's when my that's what we need to talk about. My my love is having them over shooting them. And so if you don't have them, you can't shoot them. So that makes a lot of sense because more and more we're trying to develop small holes. So you don't have to have a lot of ducks have a super quality hunt, you don't have to shoot them. Over thousands of them, you know. And so that makes a ton of sense. So the bigger places become obviously the sanctuaries. Kind of got a couple of them now. We don't want to. Yeah. And I I think that's one of the ways people have asked, how do you have duck hunting where you are? Not even well, that's probably a big, big part of y'all have witnessed it. No, your pressure management.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

You've always been pressure management is huge. Not only hunting, but d just disturbance. You know, one of the issues people have, they want to go ride and look at them. So they're gonna get in the truck, go ride and go, hey, let's go look at the ducks.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

Go get the ducks up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 22:33

Well, these new cell camps, you know, a Spartan Go Live. You could put it on a place and be able to click and look at the colour.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Honestly, I'm not so sure that that Spartan Go Live, mightn't it be the other than surveillance of your property from someone breaking in, like putting them on duck holes might be the number one most useful thing. Yeah. Because you're right. On the line, you're like, you know, y'all know how Adamant and how good Neil is at the duck thing. And you know, scouting and picking the right spot, and Max run with him, he knows too. But I was like, Oh, he's asked, did you get them up? I said, Well, yeah, I had to, because we I mean, there's corn there or tall grass, or you know, we could I wouldn't have known how many were there without getting them up. I said, Man, don't get them up. We get back and forth on that all the time. And he he does know it's best not to get them up. So that camera would be so nice. That's exactly what I'm gonna use the one I've got for, and hopefully get a couple more to do it with.

SPEAKER_07 23:34

Yeah. So uh Dudley, I want to get to you next, but before I want to stay on this theme real quick, Jim. I'm looking at you. The state of Arkansas, so once that season comes in, there's a and I'm thinking about public land hunt. Can they hunt every day? Yes. On like a bio meter or something? Yes. Would would the public do you think if research from what uh like Ryan's doing down the road, if it said, hey, we just need to hunt this three days a week, do you think the uh the people would take would they respond to that?

SPEAKER_00 24:06

And we have areas like that now on White River Refuge. There's parts of White River Refuge you can only hunt certain days per week. All of our public areas pretty much shut off at noon. You gotta be out of there by twelve o'clock. Um on the state areas, they've got it where non-residents can only hunt three different ten-day periods. So they're trying to reduce pressure that away. I don't know that you'll ever get that through in the state of Arkansas on a WMA or on a GTR where you can only hunt three days per week generally general public, but there will be areas that they'll have it limited to that to keep pressure down. And you can see where pressure is limited, duck use is up heavily. Oh direct correlation.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

I would love to have some brave state somewhere or federal government even do it and take an area and say, you know, maybe they they don't limit it to three days a week, but maybe, maybe it's three days a week. I don't care, but say, and you you said you you made me think about when you said not after lunch, is like nobody can put a boat in or go hunting until eight o'clock in the morning. I'd love to see how that affected the continued use, because my own philosophy, again, unscientific is what I've seen is like if you go and you're there before daylight and the first thing that shows up and you're pounding them, you're pounding them, and you gotta have that limit so we just stay on and on and on until the morning, you've moved it. They're going somewhere else. They gotta eat, especially if it's really cold. They gotta go eat something and they're gone. You've you've moved them. If you go in and I mean, so like our stuff where we have stuff planted and they're feeding, you go in at like eight o'clock or maybe, well, they've already had a chance to feed there, and they're a lot less bothered by you riding up, you know, on your uh ATV and throwing your decoys out and stuff than they are you pouting shooting at them. Plus, your first couple of shots in the morning in over every duck coming there. So I don't know. I was just curious I'd love to see someone do a specific research project just to ban the daylight hunting. And I know I ever I love that first crack of daylight. Everybody duck hunts loves it. Be interesting to see like eight to twelve.

SPEAKER_09 26:14

You can shoot from eight to nine. Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Or maybe eight to two, let them stay longer, you know. But but eliminate that first daylight, because I feel like what we're doing here is we're trust more and more and more, we're training them to be nocturnal. And that's just my own.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Training is the key word there. So it'd be interesting to see what would happen if you didn't start until eight.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Well, every every person we have on that has that scientific lifestyle uh research background, it it comes out saying the same thing, and it's like the laws of the universe, not just our earth area. Nature adapts. No matter what, nature's gonna always adapt. That's just the way it's cre this whole world's created. So you got to use that in your tool, you know, your your tool, your box of tools for managing wildlife, and understand in every single case, nature will adapt. Now, what does that mean? A thousand different things depending on what you're doing in the species.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Well, one thing I think what you're saying there, we talked about on the way over here, evolution is ongoing. It doesn't quit. Mother nature's always as we get better, she gets better, you know. So that you always got to keep that in mind moving forward, I think.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah, why of I ever thought that that didn't apply to hunting and wildlife? I don't know. I was just but I mean everybody should wake up and realize nature adapts, and this that should be a buzzword in your mind when you're you know planning the hunting or you know working on your place, and it's gonna happen. And uh everything we talked about today says that screams it actually.

SPEAKER_07 27:47

Dudley, you you got a question?

SPEAKER_09 27:49

Well, I'm I'm looking at some of these uh questions from our listeners and uh wanted to get that rolling, possibly. Um so I've got one from Brett Cherry, and he said, I'd like to hear a breakdown of how night migration works. How do waterfowl navigate at night? Great question.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Yeah, that that is a great question, something uh few people have looked at. I haven't looked at closely, so I'm I'm definitely not the expert on this. Uh but it's I mean, there's there's definitely the ability to migrate at night, and there's some theories about why they're doing that, whether it's to avoid avian predators like peregrines. Uh there's there's trade-offs, obviously. You're able to find food during migration if you're migrating during the day and and stop over and like things like that. I think with with ducks specifically, their ability to kind of sense where they are and use landmarks, and you think about, I mean, even waterways are pretty pretty obvious, uh, especially at night if there's any moonlight, uh, that they can still kind of navigate with those and use some of those landscape uh kind of points to to base that migration on and then find suitable habitat where I mean they're really looking for water and that has some sort of reflectance that they're able to pick up and and make it in. Uh but yeah, it's incredible, incredible ability to to do so.

SPEAKER_09 29:09

So it's amazing how that works.

SPEAKER_07 29:11

Along those same lines, so if a if a duck was at the border of of America and Canada and picked up and started flying south, is there some data that shows do they prefer to fly at night and then how far would they in a day's time would they travel?

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Yeah, we uh kind of everywhere between stopping every 50 miles to being able to make that whole jump from from Canada, North Dakota, all the way to Arkansas. Uh I've I've worked a lot more with with speckle bellies and and Canada geese in Illinois and even their abilities, so jumping from the Arctic down to prairies in Canada, and then all of our speckle bellies flew straight from Prairie Canada to uh the Arkansas Delta down into Louisiana, or even I was talking with somebody earlier, I guess Rob, uh, about the speckle bellies hitting Mississippi and Alabama. It's like they get caught in the jet stream and get dumped out over here and then make their way back to the Delta the next day.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Uh so really Yeah, because our our prevailing jet streams are gonna be west to east, but then that's also kind of northwest to southeast, and sometimes dead out of the north on behind these fronts. So rarely do we get one going back to the west. But it so um, you know, makes sense when they get in a jet stream. I mean, it won't take a couple of hours. Yeah. I mean, you got a hundred and something mile back, you know, at their back, just like flying in an airplane. Yeah. Or faster.

SPEAKER_07 30:38

So they're covering some ground then.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yeah, I have a uh pintail with a transmitter a couple years ago that went from like somewhere way up northern Saskatchewan to Benson Lake, like in a 36-hour period or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Yeah, yeah. That's wild. It's it's it can be a matter of days. I mean, their their ability, especially with those those uh winds at altitude, yeah. I mean, they're just so efficient flying.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

I wonder how high can that's a good question. How high can they get and still, you know, because obviously at a certain height we can't breathe, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Yeah, yeah, you know, our our transmitters give us altimeter uh readings, and they're not super accurate. They're based on on that GPS connection. Right. Um, but that's something I need to look at with our mountains. I know with Cand of Geese we had a few that I think were migrating like a thousand feet. Oh, that's nothing. I've nothing gonna be higher than that. Yeah, that's that's not much. Yeah, I don't know about these mountains. I bet you it's it's high. Interesting stuff. Yeah. You got another one, Doug?

SPEAKER_06 31:36

Um well Mac, have you got one? I do. Uh so we think about turkeys, we think about how well that they can see. How how well can ducks see and and kind of how does their eyesight work as far as like on a on a scientific level? I mean, I know ducks can see, and I mean we we kick a lot of water so they can see that, but uh the reflections and things like that. But like what is can you compare a duck's eyesight to?

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Yeah, they they just see way beyond the same color spectrum we do, so they're seeing into that UV spectrum. Uh and there's there's some really neat research out of songbirds and stuff that's looked at that. There's a lot less with ducks, but we kind of assume that that most birds are are pretty similar. But their ability to pick out UV reflection and just reflection in general, we were talking about materials on the way on the way over here and and how different materials have different UV reflectance and and I mean into that light spectrum that we just can't sense. And they they definitely have a way. I I take a lot of pictures and I was all excited, got a new ghillie blanket that had kind of some artificial fiber and and had a good cypress break that I was getting set up that had a bunch of mallards, and I lay down, kind of snuggled down in between some cypress knees, and the first first pair came in and just it was like they saw a ghost. And I mean, to me this this ghillie blanket looked incredible, but there was some some reflectance from that that I mean it just they picked that out immediately, even though I was tucked back into some really dark. That's that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_09 33:06

Um you know, I know there was a lot of research with deer where folks were, you know, wash your clothing in this to so is that a similar UV type thing?

SPEAKER_03 33:15

Yeah, yeah, I I think so, and I don't think we've really explored it that well, but I I I personally believe it.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

Because you can when you're in you know, in your clothing, especially today, with all the synthetic great fibers people I honestly, if you're and Jim may have noticed this too, if you're sitting in the woods right at daylight, you can see if your clothing is it's just there's something about that first period of light where you can see light just jumping off of it almost. And it's several cotton. Yeah, we used to test it with the uh black light, because that's you know, UV reflecting.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

So I guess it's it is absolutely no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

It it does I have no doubt about it that especially you know, I'm thinking about turkeys.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yeah, turkeys, ducks, deer, and so critters in general.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

We at the time, the by far and away the best material for camel's wife's clothing was all cotton. And the stuff that had synthetic fibers in it reflected a lot more UV light. And so I know there's been some universities do some pretty extensive research, but also had heard they kind of tabled it to not try to draw any undue you know bad conclusions about certain, you know, clothing companies and stuff. But honestly, the truth is the truth. I'd love to know what that truth is. I'd love for us to be able to make a better product if that's necessary using something.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

But um, well it would behoove all of us on this side of the fence, no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

You know, I it makes so much sense. I mean, how can my dogs are in we're at home and it's black dark, no moon or anything, and they bark and uh realize that you know there's a deer 200 yards they could sit in the black dark out the one. I mean, they literally have to be able to see a different part of the light spectrum. So, I mean, we've pretty much proven that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Well, talking about dogs, we here's here's another one. You take a dog with some hunting experience, retriever, duck hunting experience, and you cripple a miter drake in 12 dozen miter decoys, and they can pick out that cripple amongst all them decoys instantly. So you can't tell me they can't see in a little different spectrum than what we do. We may go, man, that's a cool looking decoy. That's a really cool looking camouflage. Look how it blends with this or that. Well, them critters are seeing it way different than we are. I think that's important.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Yeah, and it probably, you know, I ain't thought about that because one of the things I talk about all the time is in the first hour or so, it's almost impossible to hide from 'em, no matter what we're in. And I'm not so sure that it's the difference in the decoys. And the UV ref you know, for lack of a better word, reflectance would be so much more dramatic in the wee hours. And then once you get a full bright sunlight, it kind of goes away, and I don't have those issues anymore. And I've never understood why, because we'd be in blinds that are hidden so good, and honestly, there's more bright light for us to show up in the middle of the day. And I realize there's a little shadow cast and all that, but it's it's it's unbelievable how spooky they are in the dim light early on. And I'm not maybe that's it. Maybe the the difference in the decoys not looking real is more dramatic in the dim light. I don't know. That's something that'd be a great topic for research too. But you know, I remember still the the father of all this camouflage, my buddy Jim Cromley, they used to ask him about it all the time. He said, Well, until we get deer to talk, we'll never know for sure. That's a good that's a dang good point. Yeah. But I bet you we could today's technology could figure out what's going on with the duck and the deer and the turkey. And I'll bet you it's very, very similar. I bet you it is.

SPEAKER_09 36:57

Dudley, what you got one ready? All right. So um we're kind of shifting here. Jay Ballard 16 wants to know how do you view the don't shoot hens opinion?

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Yeah, this is something we even talked about before we started recording. Uh this is this is a tough one, and it kind of goes into whether harvest is additive versus compensatory. So basically whether harvest is actually uh decreasing the population or if that that harvest is being compensated for by by increased production. So for it to be compensatory, you have to have density dependence, which basically just means there's limited resources, and those resources are limiting the number of ducks. Uh so that's really what's concerning the population instead. For the most part, we think that harvest on ducks is compensatory, so it's usually compensated for by basically having more ponds for those ducks that do survive, and we we know we're shooting ducks that are less healthy and probably less likely to go back and breed anyways. So it's decreasing the number of ducks out there and and allowing those surviving ducks to go nest. Uh in these dry years, like we've seen the last last couple of years at least, that that might differ. I I'm not deep enough into that side of things to really have a strong opinion. Uh I mean I love to shoot drakes. I think it's I mean it's kind of a challenge for me to to pick out drakes and and when things are going really well, uh, I'd I'd prefer to only shoot drakes. Yeah. But if you're having a rough hunt, uh it's not the end of the world, I don't think, if you shoot a hen. And especially on these these boom years, when we do get wet years, it's it's harvest probably isn't going to make any difference on the population.

SPEAKER_07 38:43

Yeah. That that's that's interesting. Jim, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

I've I've got it, I've got another angle there. Okay. Um shoot them and get out of there, leave them alone. Disturbance, pressure, disturbance, pressure management. If you've got opportunity, if you need two ducks to finish a limit and two mounted hens, just shoot them and get out of there, let the ducks have it back. It's kind of my theory. But I'm looking at it more from a pressure management, yeah, managing hunting property or something like that. So go on and get them and get out. You know, shoot stay within the limits, don't go crazy. But I'm all I would say go on, shoot them and get out of there.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Yeah, and that's looking through some of these questions. There's a lot on kind of shifting uh if there's northward shift, if ducks are are shortstopping. I think a lot of what we're seeing, what we need to think a lot more about is is how pressure is influencing duck movements and recruitment and distribution, yeah, and basically where they're going on the landscape. And I think that has a a huge impact, absence of kind of that mortality of of the effect on population and and hunter success. So it's like Illinois, Central Illinois. I mean, there are areas that uh we were reporting aerial survey numbers with Forbes Biological Station, and we'd have people, I mean, just cussing us saying we're making these numbers up. And it's because they're in this public area is really heavily hunted. They wouldn't see a duck all morning, even though there's 30,000 just sitting a mile, a mile and a half from them that only come out to feed at at sunset, that they're just never there in the afternoon to see them. And it's pressure, pressure, and how that's kind of changed how smart ducks are. I'd I'm not sure I'd call it evolving, but but it's it's influencing their behaviors. Uh to major pan, and it's it's it's influencing influencing hunter success and how hunters are perceiving duck population.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Nature adapts every time.

SPEAKER_07 40:24

Landy, you've got a question?

SPEAKER_04 40:26

Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I always have a question about ducks. Uh, you know, I think we've touched a little bit on on time frames to migrate, we've talked a little bit about pressure, and then we talked about the northern crops. So what I'm I'm hearing from you, you know, we we say this a lot of times here, we're like, oh, they pressed them too hard up north before they got there. Is that a possibility?

SPEAKER_03 40:49

I I'd say it's a possibility. Uh so one of the the most interesting points I've heard is that we know that younger birds uh are spreading out across the landscape more. So that's where we think that possibly increased harvest, especially of juvenile, uh especially juvenile females up north, maybe with spangling decoys, we know they're more susceptible. Uh we think that could be where we're seeing a kind of decrease in mallard harvest, especially in Louisiana. Uh that's been thrown around. I don't know if there's validity to that. I don't know how you'd test that. But no, I I I think it's a possibility that, yeah, the the amount of hunting up north could influence uh less so the population, but the distribution of the earth.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

We certainly the very first week or so of our season on a different duck than what we know starting at say Christmas and on. Yeah. No question. They're like they're so much spookier. And you know, I don't know if that's because surely the more hunting pressure they've had that year in older ducks, yes, sir, you know, have to be it has to make a difference. Yeah, we sure blame it on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 41:56

So as a researcher, is there something that you've learned about ducks that like surprised you?

SPEAKER_03 44:52

Ooh, ooh. There are lots of things, and and I go back to geese. I'll try to focus on ducks. The home range. I mean, how little some of these ducks will move uh is incredible. And again, it's going back to to adapting. So to where we have this really heavily pressured landscape in southeast Arkansas, the Stuttgart area, uh, around Five Oaks. Uh, there's pressure all over the place. And some of those ducks, I mean, they're not moving more than two miles from from their roosting site almost the entire winter. I mean, they're moving so little, they need they're finding food sources where they know they're safe, and they're just going back and forth to that uh till they till they run out of food, basically. Uh so that's been really, really fascinating to me. The relationship with bomblin hardwoods, uh, I think is really interesting, and that's something I'm looking at. So we're trying to figure out uh really use ducks, these transmitters, to inform management of bomblin hardwoods. So figure out what forest characteristics, uh things like stem density, uh these thickets, and and even tying in some behavioral data. So we have accelerometers in these these transmitters that I brought, and we can infer behaviors from that. So we can we can look at how that transmitter is moving in three axes, and we can go back and and kind of separate those out and figure out what movements relate to what behaviors. So whether they're say feeding, whether they're flying, whether they're resting, and we're really starting to I'm starting to tease apart how different force characteristics are related to behaviors that's uh I can't wait to see that.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Yeah, no doubt.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

No, it's it's really neat stuff, and I'm really fortunate to be down there.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Uh so just as an opinion for now, how important is uh a flooded timber place to have some cover, like some thick cover as opposed to all big, beautiful red oaks raining.

SPEAKER_03 46:49

lots of food you know yep yep i i think it's really important and that's that's one of the interesting things we're finding out so we're we're right next to biomeda so obviously a really heavily pressured yes just massive expanse of of bomblin' hardwood uh so our ducks if if you look at selection so basically the proportion of of locations in timber compared to what's theoretically available to them they're actually avoiding timber but a lot of that's being driven by biomeda we think because of the hunting pressure right yeah uh so it's it's definitely important to have a a heterogeneity of habitats have a diversity and it's it's like with pretty much all wildlife management uh so yeah thickets in your kind of in your big woods even bun bush sloughs are incredibly important for loafing and roosting huge uh that's actually one of the areas we've we're seeing the highest selection for is is these reservoirs and stuff around us where they're they're loafing.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Do you think that you think that it just seems like m more and more that uh especially I don't know mallards especially because we key on them they just if they were feeding in open water in places they get in there they get full and they're headed they want something overhead like is it that they fear the hawks and eagles more and more? Yeah because they just seem some ducks can just sit out on wide open spaces all day long doesn't seem to bother them but the mallards especially want to go not just in the timber I think they like it for the cover. So you get a lot of the stuff we have around here that buck brush he's talking about or button brush or whatever it's called you know I can remember by managing with the crop duster we eliminated and I think we eliminated too much of it. Yeah in some places but some of the places we have had really really good hunts there's no rhyme or reason except it had that overhead cover. They had an open hole to land in but then immediately they could swim out into stuff with a real dense over canopy. Yeah yeah and I think you're spot on with that avian predator.

SPEAKER_09 48:45

I think it's the eagles and the hawks they just we have a lot of folks get button bush from us and they'll strategically plant it in their you know impoundments but what they're doing is it will take over an impoundment but they go in and mulch right holes out of it and the ducks like to land in the open and then swim under the it'd be easy to control if you if you can control the water every year.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

It'd be pretty easy because you would go in there and control it. I was wondering I let some you know it's a real invasive but the um Cesbania I guess gets pretty tall and cover. I don't I wonder if that's enough in some of these wide open spots. I left a couple of places this year where I left you know a pretty good size open hole and I'd leave a couple of like an acre or two per spot that I left it.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

I just left it. Yeah. No I I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think I think that provides vertical cover. I mean we know it's not really providing food value but that vertical carver is it's crucial. And you think about kind of noise abatement I mean planting screens around houses it's the same thing with ducks to where if you have that vertical cover and you know the wind blowing through that shots are going to spook them way less. It's gonna stress them out way less if they've got something kind of knocking that noise down a little bit.

SPEAKER_07 50:01

That that really is interesting.

SPEAKER_09 50:02

Go ahead I was going to say I'd I'd like to get into some food type stuff. And guy named Taylor Bobo said do ducks actually use the flooded timber for a food source or is that more to loaf and rest?

SPEAKER_03 50:17

Can't wait to hear that.

SPEAKER_09 50:18

I'd like to evolve on some of that too.

SPEAKER_03 50:20

Yeah yeah they they definitely use it for a food source. Obviously red oak acorns are big uh we're doing a lot of research so again with the transmitters we're looking at forest composition so red oak composition in those woods to look at where they're using in the woods and if red oaks are more more prevalent there or not. We're also using uh metabarcoding DNA techniques with their poop essentially from harvested birds to look at what composition of their diet is is red oak acorns, invertebrates uh versus moist soil seeds or like agricultural grains. That's great. That's going on right now yeah yeah it's it's processing so that's incredible. Yeah yeah it's it's really neat technology I'm really excited to see the results. Uh so yeah there it's it's definitely multiple multiple use so there's there's definitely good food sources in there uh but that that structure is also really important like like he's asking I mean it's really important for loafing and resting and getting away from avian predators.

SPEAKER_09 51:18

Um there seemed to be a lot more a lot more avian predators now than ever I don't know I I've always been interested in all of that especially uh you know I'm a tree guy but the moist soil stuff really interests me and when I was younger it seemed like consensus was more broadleaf stuff like smart weeds and things and then uh it changed to more you know grassy you know sedges and grasses as being what everybody wanted to manage for.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Is that still what uh it's I go back to heterogeneity again. Uh a little bit of each is really important, especially so we focus so much on on managing for mallards, but those sedges and some of those smaller seeds uh there's really not a lot of species that'll eat eat even say millet uh like pentails green wings are really selecting for those really small seeds uh like red root flat sedge oh panic grass uh some of those smaller seeds so yeah having that that mixture is really important. Of course mallards love millet they're kind of generalist so they do pretty well on we call one sprangletop how good is it? Uh it's pretty it's it's good.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

It doesn't produce as much seed abundance as you know it's funny though there's a there's a s there's a maybe a s there's two types or the soil but some of them um put on a huge head some of them are short and some of them are you know whatever three four feet tall and put on and that's is that just the have perfect growing conditions rich soil or is there two different types?

SPEAKER_03 52:52

It could be and there's a few other grasses that look I and I'm I'm not great with my moist soil plants.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

I need to be a lot better but there are a few others that that look pretty similar to sprang tops it it seems to be more and more like invasive course what you like you want you know it's like barnyard grass is the the gold standard you know and you start looking at all that and the one of the best thing could have it's very invasive and I say bring it on you know yep mallards love it. Yep we have a lot and that's kind of our that's our fallback position. I'm not so sure we don't get just as much help from all the barnyard grass we raise as all the stuff we plant but you know because it is millets basically this basically just wild millet so I I'm a big proponent for moist soil management. I mean it provides uh just incredible diversity of of nutritional needs for we'd love to have more broadleaves the the Pennsylvania smart weed's about the only really beneficial one I know to kind of let go but in our world there's so many invasive good for nothing broadleaves and of course by nature broadleaf means shades everything out so we just in a lot of cases we have to manage to get rid of them or we don't have anything. So we don't have the opportunity to really manage towards there's something about the Pennsylvania smart wheat here that comes on strong really late in the even into the fall. And in dry period or in the No I mean like in the I mean it barely shows up in like September, late August. And it'll be making flowers like even to you know and into October and it seems like stuff has been suppressed and it just really takes off late late in the year and I'll get a stand oven in like the the pond at the cabin there's probably three acres solid of that and it just kind of took over late in the year. I don't know why maybe it's some water got onto other you know some some water standing will suppress weeds you know but let other ones there are some weeds yeah there's some weeds that can can really take advantage of that standing water.

SPEAKER_09 54:56

Interesting stuff. Yes and uh you know I want to get onto some tree stuff too but uh you know we were talking about red oak acorns and then I also hear a lot of talk about just the leaves falling out of an oak tree is a a a good way to hold invertebrates. You know whereas you know you've got ag fields that are just mud bottoms but there's stalks that they can hang out on and it's it's just so interesting. But it seems like diversity wins.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

Every time yeah well and it's I mean I think I'm I kind of come from a holistic perspective uh thinking about the broad ecosystem and I think managing for those things helps us I mean get cleaner waters manage all these ecosystem services on top of helping helping provide food for ducks. So yeah that leaves and bomblin hardwoods more invertebrates more uh aerobic anaerobic processes that are influencing water quality and all sorts of other things that I think are really meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

That ducks like to eat bugs. Yeah yeah you think about the protein there too you know yeah better feather structure egg shells going on the flyback for spring nesting all that comes into play so yeah you need a little all of it.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

Yeah and there's there's some discussion we're still figuring out how important invertebrates are and again with this diet study that's one of the things we're we're hoping to look at. There's some evidence that it's it's mixed. I mean it's some studies have kind of suggested that invertebrates are super important that they're already building those proteins that they're they're probably really important for building back proteins once they arrive here on migration because sometimes they're catabolizing protein out of their muscles. So to build that back is important. But then when do they really need that calcium in protein when they start heading back north and whether it needs to be here or on those stopover areas is a big question.

SPEAKER_09 58:51

It's just so interesting how adaptable they are. You know I I'm I grew up on the Mississippi flyway and you know five hundred years ago that was nothing but cane breaks and red oaks and sweet gums and and now it's almost nothing but agriculture. And they've they've completely adapted to that.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

Yeah yeah and that's geese geese are incredibly adaptive and mallards I mean to a large extent too they're they're generalists and that's we were having some discussions on the way over here on on what historic waterfowl populations looked like and and how this kind of agricultural dominate landscape has changed those population levels. And we know like with snow geese that that agriculture in the Mississippi Luvial Valley and and north has just allowed them to explode essentially and same with speckle bellies to some extent and and whether or not that's the case with mallards as well. So interesting so would nocturnal behavior be something that they've adapted to it's it's probably something that's always been there to some degree uh like I think they probably always had the ability to feed nocturnally one because avian predators are predominantly diurnal. I mean great horned owls barred owls might take ducks but really eagles and peregrines are are what we think the main waterfowl predators are. So that I mean that could have even before kind of modern hunting uh could have been influencing that pattern to some extent uh but yeah it it it just seems to me even in my short life and the short time I've been on this earth that that it's it's definitely moving more that that nocturnal pattern than you know Lane I know historically I mean yeah it well look I want to just kind of ask this question it's a little off the wall but um in England they hunt ducks at night over there as an ecologist what's going on why why are they doing that and what's the Yeah they they definitely have a different take on game management than we do that I know you guys are familiar with and and talk about uh to where it is really the resource of of the wealthy and nobility.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Uh and yeah I I mean it's definitely effective it sounds like you can shoot a lot of ducks if you're shooting after after dust.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:12

Yeah I mean they can't manage for I mean they can't be trying to shoot drakes of it's just I don't I it didn't make sense to me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

But it's waterfowl hunting over there is just at such a small scale that it probably isn't having a meaningful impact at the population level compared to the number of hunters we have here.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:30

That's good to know. So I I just always scratch my head at it Yeah it it is interesting. Yeah it is so I you know I think we we've hit on something here kind of a a cord that makes sense to me but managing this hunting pressure however you guys are trying to learn about it more Toxie has certainly figured out some things himself. Landon we see it our from just from being around him and places. But Jim you're shaking your head obviously you agree that it's a big part.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

It's a huge part it's a huge part the deal is we all like to hunt them we all like to watch them we all like to be a part so you want to go get in a boat and go riding and scouting in the afternoons and we got some federal areas big large tracts of woods that's federal it's on refuge property. You can't necessarily hunt waterfowl hunt in the afternoon but you can bow hunt you can squirrel hunt you do whatever some people want to go get in a boat and go scouting. Well you're running ducks out of the woods in the afternoon and then you wonder why the next morning that you're not as productive. And the better we can manage that the better I think we're going to be with the opportunity to to increase harvest and increase hunting pleasure while hunting and let ducks use those habitats.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

Yeah and we're we're looking to inform a lot of how we kind of design those those the timing of hunting in those refuges the spatial aspect of hunting in those refuges so Ethan Ditmer uh with the Osborne lab at UAM has been working on White River and what he's finding is that ducks are actually using the the spatial sanctuary so the areas that they can only hunt in the morning the same as just a regular like free for all hunted area to where really that spatial sanctuary that that no afternoon hunting really doesn't seem to be making a difference. So thinking about if we need to time that like we talked about earlier just two days a week and then just leave whole days or whole blocks that they aren't allowed to hunt or if if that morning hunting is meaningful and and I mean we can increase the hunter effort and and access if we allow them to hunt in the afternoons. I mean how many people can't wake up at 2 a.m to go to a public boat launch and hunt a morning but could go hunt in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

I would think there are a number of private places in Arkansas that probably really manage their hunting pressure that you guys could learn from if if there was a way to several we're both around a lot you know have no hunting past ten o'clock some are past nine o'clock if you don't have them by nine you're out let the ducks have them the rest of the day.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:00

So Toxie when I first moved here a long time ago there were these older men Clark Young being one of them big duck and they they typically would not go hunting. They would hunt almost every day but they wouldn't go till about eight o'clock in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

Seven, eight o'clock, yeah yep. And so but I also remember uh Carcy telling me well dad likes to go and see where the ducks were he would go I mean I didn't go with him just a whole lot but I'd get to go sometimes and he would pull up their main place they had there was a there was a big hill you could sit there and watch and he'd sit there and watch for a while and then he'd he had a argo and he'd right he'd go right to where most ducks were and honestly at the time you could not there's no way you could do it today. He would take bundles of cane just bright green doesn't even blend in with where it was and just literally just kind of space it around there and you shoot ducks out of the Argo in the wide open. We couldn't anymore do that today the man and the moon. But back then we did. But he would go where they were and his his thing was was just like wait and see where they're using because he thought you know and I I think he's probably right Jim probably agreed to that too there's some reason they pick certain spots and then that's their spot for the day and then it might not be you know a a couple days from now. So that was what he was thinking. And I think part of it was I never really asked him was like let them eat a little bit first just like I've been saying.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:23

So he didn't go at daylight that mu that often you know that's an interesting thought the way you had that uh on the early morning show Doug what Yeah there's no doubt yeah I like my sleep so I I could get on board with that for sure.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:39

You got another c another question, Doug?

SPEAKER_09 1:05:42

Uh let's see Thomas Rexler wanted to know if if you'd rather hunt the thaw after a few days of hard freeze or the day of an incoming hunt.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

When is that normally both I want to pick both. Yeah it's always good on the front side when they go to hit the feed heavy after a thaw you go hunt a food source. If it starts a thaw hunt find a food source and that's some of the best there is you know right when it starts thawing out I was hunting a break one year and we'd had a hard freeze and it was old deadening and man piles and piles of ducks crossing us and we was blowing our heads off and they wouldn't even look at you. They just go into a rice field right next to us and we slid over there and shot them up. Either one can be great it's fun to be on both sides of that and that's why I say both. I'm not going to pick one over the other but I want to be there for both.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:32

Gotcha. Mac you got a question?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:35

I do I do I I've got a few but there's there's two that I really have been curious about. So we've talked about you know habitat and and huntability and and and kind of the the duck in in general but what species of ducks are growing is is you know mallards growing pintails wood ducks or are fallen or kind of how how is that population change right now?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:00

Yeah well right now uh we're we're kind of seeing a lot of falling just because of the the water conditions up in the prairies and the nesting grounds uh blue wing teal I think we've we've seen a rapid response so they're more oh this is going back to to college biology uh are selected so basically they're having more young and they're shorter lived so they're able to kind of recover more quickly than some of these slightly longer lived ducks like mallards or pintails. So blue wings obviously did well this year and as really with all of them it's it's so dependent on habitat on the nesting grounds to where if we just have two or three good years of of good habitat up there, those populations are going to be moving in the right direction really quick.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:43

Yeah wood ducks wood ducks are a tough one they're declining in some areas we think some of that's kind of due to broodering habitat not just nesting habitat so we know a lot of these areas have good natural cavities places for them to nest but then they're they're really uh not dependent but but they do well in emergent marsh habitats which we're losing especially in the upper Mississippi River Valley and Illinois river valley uh to where we think that could be influencing some decline in in wood ducks but I'm not sure I I certainly don't have data to support that but that's just kind of been the trend I've I've been seeing and and feeling Ryan it's it's obvious uh you you hunt and you you're a fantastic photographer we saw some stuff on uh Ryanasprin.com it's incredible thank you for photography but if you were somebody said okay you're in charge of all these ducks if somebody said that are is there things that that you say okay this is what I would do. One, two, three that these are changes that I would make and would I we're just I'm just asking your opinion.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:50

Yeah in so in the winter grounds I mean one of the biggest things is fixing hydrology.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

We've seen uh just huge issues from uh these major river systems flooding from all this uh levying and draining of these major river systems that have just forced the rivers into a small area that are leaned to all these flood issues and that's been really detrimental to waterfowl habitat kind of this latitude uh up through the Midwest uh so that's a big thing if if if I could fix one thing I think hydrology would be a big part and that of course is leaned to red oak decline in Arkansas and where we're seeing these shifts of historically red oak areas into overcup and uh more water tolerant white oak species that aren't food for ducks uh that aren't really benefiting ducks uh so yeah the fixing fixing hydrology would be one of the biggest ones both at regional and and fine scale that sounds like a big ask yeah yeah that's that's if if I had a genie that that is what one of my wishes uh then you know that just that's not gonna happen so how can we compensate as gamekeepers as people who care for enormously for the future of our ducks how can we adapt that because the that goes back to what I love so much is our our mission here our evangelism is like air the way we can make the most effective change is not by like lobbying our governments or you know maybe donating to the big wildlife organizations. That's all important but every single person and there you know everybody we're ta listening right has some kind of influence or they do the work on some place. And we have the power to do that as a group when we can do positive stuff for wildlife. And so my point in saying this and I will just till I'm blue in the face or y'all bury me someday Is like empower every single person to become that gamekeeper and become conservation conscious in their own place and together, everybody that hunts can make a huge difference. Yeah. More so than any other entity.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:07

Yep. Even if all you have is your backyard.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:10

That's right. Absolutely. And so, yeah, and just having the knowledge and spreading it and, you know, getting it out to people and doing, you know, take care of your own spot. And I know waterfowl especially is important because we have to depend on our neighbors so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:26

Yeah. Yeah. And that's it's we have to manage in complexes. So we have to have landowners that are willing to really care about the resource and not just about shooting that resource for a short time uh to really make a a difference on the landscape. But no, that's that's absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:42

I mean, I and I've got great confidence that there's so many people that want to do right, but they just don't know what to do. Yeah. Even I want to know more and more all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

Every end.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:53

I'd throw another caveat out there, besides do all you can with the habitat you work on, um, and you know, like you said, you mentioned you can donate to the wildlife organization. Absolutely. But go buy you an extra federal duck stamp, and that'll go directly to waterfowl conservation. Great.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

Well, the first TV shows hunting the country in the early 90s, and uh Paul Newsome was our host and one of the I think it might have been the very first show, but he was opening the show and he was talking about he was addressing anti-hunters and animal lovers. He said, if you love animals, you're an animal lover. He said, and you want to give money to be sure the most, the highest percentage of your money goes directly to an animal to help an animal, the top place you can donate to is go to whatever state you're in and buy a hunting license. And that shocked a lot of people. Oh, it isn't this giving it to PETA, it's giving it to this, it's giving to that, it's giving to a conservation organization. Not shorten any of those. Even the animal rights that that's you know, that's that's what people love. That's fine. I don't have a problem. But the truth is the truth. And buying a hunting license will do more for wildlife than anything you can do. Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:05

Yeah, well said. Mac, you look like you had another question. I do. I I I have one for both of y'all. Uh, and I I want to get both of your answers, I guess. With a gamekeeper mindset, when would be the best time to put water on a hole? Also, when would be the last the best time to drain that that same hole?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

That'll all depend on what it is. You know, it that depends on on kind of habitat. If you're talking, you know, bottom line hardwood, wait as long as you can, make sure your tree's dormant before you put water on it. And then get the water off, you know, late winter, early spring. Um, if it's uh if it's a hot food crop, depending on the time of year, you gotta think about how long that grain will last underwater or being flooded. So you gotta weigh in a lot of things there. But um with us now at home where folks starting to get some water on the landscape, um there's always an opportunity for some early water, you hope for a little rain. But I'd say at our latitude, right now is a fair time to start getting some water on some fields or catching some of the early migrants and then in the woods, I'd say you're okay starting to get a little water now. We've had three good hard frost in a row, so but I'm not I'm not completely believing that these trees are all dormant. My trees are still dropping sap pretty good, they're still green. I think they're still sucking a little water, but uh let our certified smart person take it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:28

No, no, no. Yeah it depends. It's very dependent. Uh so like Jim said, these trees are not dormant, so putting water on now is adding some sort of stress, whether that's got lasting impact impacts is is I think a fair question. Uh but in terms of gamekeeper and thinking about multiple populations, getting early water on is especially important on on fields and moist soil. For all these early migrants, blueing teal, uh, shorebirds. I'm a big birder, so I love all taxa birds. Uh but providing habitat for those those migrants is really lacking, especially across the south, because it's it's a dry time of year, and it's amazing how just a little bit of water on a rice field just flashing across can provide just incredible shorebird and an early migrant blueing teal and pintail habitat. Uh and it's it's cool to see the response when people are doing that.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:20

So, I mean, like if you've only got one little spot, I'll I'll add to it, you know, maybe get to know your neighbors better. You might could go on a cycle where one of you keeps the water on longer one year and and the other neighbor takes it off sooner.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:34

And just I speak to that. If I had one spot and that was it, I wouldn't be putting water on it right now. Because uh it'll be gone by the time the hunting gets really good. Or it will be not nearly as bay. I from my own experience, they seem to like the freshly flooded food the very, very best. Oh yeah. You know, before it even gets kind of like it almost reminds me of pouring something on your you know, cornflakes, and they're a lot better when you eat them in the first few minutes than when they get soggy or something. You know, and so um if I could, I we can't really, we don't have the wherewithal, we have a lot of spots, but we don't have the wherewithal to really, really control it. I'd be I mean, I would want freshly flooded stuff around Christmas. I'd even save a few places for after the first, you know, because we go to the 31st of January. And the other thing for us is a big you know weakness. It's almost all in a major floodplain. So if we get one of those, I I can think of twice we went somewhere for Christmas a couple days and had such a flood it covered up everything, and we lose a lot of that native seed and millets. Yeah, there's a lot of flow in the ponds when that happens. And so uh so my only point saying that well, I would be if you have multiple spots, I'd be saving some. Save some.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

And also, too, think about how Mother Nature did it before we had levees on the landscape and we're artificially holding water, artificially flooding for duck use or waterfowl use. Think of that, think of a river flow and you get a little rise and that feathered edge of fresh food. So you always try to emulate that through the year. So if you got a big track of woods, you know, start maybe here, try to emulate how Mother Nature flooded it. We'll go a long way. Even with uh crop ground or or more soil, if you can adjust that water level to you, always got something fresh and something new for them to feed on, you'll be way better off.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:27

When we get a big water like that, it's really hard to hunt them for us. Yeah, because you get too much water. Yeah, you we you know we go from having, you know, a few impoundments here up and down the the main creeks and stuff to to being, you know, like a you know, a couple hundred thousand acre reservoir, you know, because that whole bottom will flood from here to Chipelo and up north of Houston and all through there. But there'll always be where we can find some where it freshly flooded in the shallowest water. That's where they'll be every time.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

Keep in mind that most puddle duck species feed or most surface feeding birds feed in six inches of water or less. So um that's what they like to use whether they're eating seeds, grain, or bugs.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:06

There's so many different scenarios. Yeah. You know, what makes it font? You have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:14

So Dudley, is uh any more of these questions bubbled up as something we need to uh ask?

SPEAKER_09 1:18:20

Let's see. Uh do moon phases affect waterfowl behavior? Great question. Taylor Bobo again.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:27

Yeah, that it that is a great question. That's something we're looking at. So we have a few different students. We're looking at at moon illumination, not just what moon illumination is at that time, but actually how many hours that moon's up at night. Uh, there's there's definitely a relationship there. Seems like there's a lot more evening uh post-dusk feeding at those greater moon illumination. So it's not really influencing the morning, uh, at least based on our transmitter data, but after sunset is really where they're able to keep moving around the landscape longer uh and feeding and escaping predation risk.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:03

Gotta have an influence.

unknown 1:19:04

It does.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:05

Yeah, no doubt. For sure.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:06

So I I've got a question. You've you brought one of these GPS transmitters that's laying here uh on the table. It's not very big, it weighs hardly anything.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:15

So uh if a hunter uh harvests a bird that's got one of these, you want them to report that. That's not yeah, please guys, let somebody know. Don't don't uh that that's the only way they can can learn something, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:28

Yep, yeah. So we with these, we're gonna know if you shot one. I mean, I can I can track you to your house if you shot one and and it's still working. And that's happening. And I've done that.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:38

I'd love to hear that. Like somebody shot a duck out of season and realized it had a transmitter on it, and you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:47

Yeah, I I've I have two stories. So one was a canned goose transmitter that I worked up around Chicago uh looking at a bunch of different questions with the University of Illinois. But we had a transmitter that migrated up to Hudson Bay, coming back, got shot in Wisconsin. I'm guessing got shot off the road because all the locations were right around a county road and then it was in somebody's house. Didn't hear anything, banned wasn't reported. We had our phone number on the transmitter, didn't get a call. I was able to get on I guess I shouldn't say the server or the the the app because I don't know who you guys have partnerships with. But I got on an app, figured out who the landowner was, uh was able to track down, figure out that the lady had a son who was in like high school, and I was actually able to get his cell phone number, and I just cold called him, and he was he was spooked. I mean he was he definitely was a little weirded out, and and justifiably so, but it had been like three weeks since he since he shot it. Uh and I got the transmitter back so so that was a good recovery. And then yeah, we've had a white fronted goose uh that USGS put a transmitter on that they gave me the data to up in Alaska, and I got a a call from a a buddy uh who had a buddy who allegedly shot it off the highway with a rifle, seeing the red neck collar that the transmitter was attached to. Oh gosh. Acted like he was changing his tire, ran out, grabbed it, realized it had a transmitter, so he just bashed it with a hammer and and I guess still took it home, but we never got that transmitter back and stuff like that. Oh my god gets a little frustrating. So sad. Don't be a you know what. Yeah, just get him in.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:23

What's one of these transmitters cost?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:26

Uh they're about 1,100 bucks.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:27

Uh we could we could probably put one of those on Clay Davis's truck so we'd know where he's going. Could we do that to actually?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:35

No, you'd never keep up with it. Blow up. Yeah. He'd rewire it.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:39

So you've got people donate money uh to y'all's organization, uh the Arkansas, University of Arkansas at Montala. Y'all are able to buy these and through by having these, you're able to study the migration habits and know what's going on. So how could we how could we help get more of these in y'all's hands?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:57

Yeah, yeah. So uh the 5 Oaks Ag Research and Education Center is a 503C uh not-for-profit. So we're able to uh essentially get donations uh for these different projects, and we've got a lot of great funding partners and have worked with like Fish and Wildlife Service and uh a lot of kind of the the traditional funding routes as well as getting some some private and and industry uh sponsorship on some of these things.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:25

Sounds like we need to get some competition between the companies that make these.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:29

No doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:30

I mean it seems like that what a great gift to conservation if they would actually I know they're in business to you know pay their families to make a living, but man.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:39

Yeah, yeah. These ones are actually they're made in Lithuania, which when you tell the university that you want to send a check to Lithuania, they get a little freaked out. But they're they're incredible. We've we've had great luck with them. Transmitter technology is continuing to evolve and and get better. It literally hardly weighs anything.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:58

So you can strap that. There's a uh some kind of way you bind that to the bird's back.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:02

Yep, yep. So we're just using basically elastic ribbon uh to go around the front of the wings and then one behind the wings. And I think transmitter attachment definitely could get better, but that's the best we best we have right now. And we we have a few birds. We just had one that was deployed in 2019 get shot in I think North Dakota. Uh so some of them are lasting quite a while, and in theory, so they have a solar panel on them with internal batteries. So in theory, that transmitter is going to work as long as that bird's alive. Uh so they can last a while. With candy geese, I have I have a transmitter on canned goose right now that's going on eight years. Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:42

But the the science that is going on, um, I mean, there's a number of schools, Ryan. We we Mississippi State's right here, we've we've talked to Brian from Tennessee. That's right. Yeah. And then we talked to a lot of different university uh professors, and the research that's going on is just fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:58

It it it really is. And it's just I would think that with technology improving like it is, it's just gonna get that much better.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:04

Yes, sir. Yeah, and that's I'm I'm just trying to keep up with everybody else. There's lots of people that are a lot smarter than me.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:10

Um Jimbo, you've you know you've forgotten more than I'll ever know about any of this. But can you see these when you're looking and ducks are pitching in? Can you tell they've got a transmitter on them?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:18

I can't. I mean, once you if you're there when we put them on and you turn them loose, you see them for a little bit, but once they get used to them, it's hard to see them till you get the other thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:26

So I'm just saying, uh, if if if you're hunting, if you could tell that they're there, would you rather people not shoot the duck?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:32

Yeah, ideally they're they're giving us much better data when they're alive than when they're dead. But it's it's so hard to you're probably gonna see the leg band before you see the transmitter. We've even gotten pictures, the birds will actually preen in this entire transmitter, so the only thing you can even see in hand is the little solar panel sticking up.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:50

The biggest thing is please, please, please turn them in.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:52

Yep, please, please turn in transmitters, we'll send you a replica. Please always report your bands. Uh that's incredibly important data that we're working with a lot too.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:01

Now, if you see one coming in with a piece of rye straw hanging off its leg, it's probably banded and it may have one of them on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:06

Yeah, I there was, I guess it's been watch out now, five or six years, and there was this uh someone thought it was wounded, and then but it kept come by. Turned out we could tell, and that's not the easiest thing to determine, it was a hen red uh hen canvas back. And someone's like it was wounded, the legs just sticking out behind it, whatever, and then there's several different hunts. We saw this duck, but it was it was a canvas back and couldn't shoot him. Thank goodness we realized what it was, but it it turned out it was an antenna sticking out. Oh wow. So it had to be something along these lines.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:42

Yeah, they've so with diving ducks, these don't work as well just because they have to dive and it's creating more resistance. So a lot of time with diving ducts they'll actually implant the transmitter.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:51

Yeah, so it was like uh it was like a little antenna thing sticking out. Sticking out of its back.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:55

She may have been spying on you, Tacis.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:58

I still remember, but it looked like when they fly by, it was like a a wounded duck that can't hold its legs up under and it's just kind of sticking out behind them. But it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:08

Yeah. There's some funny stories, especially around like Iran and and Egypt, where researchers are putting transmitters on things and then the foreign government's capturing them and claiming it's the other government spying on them with the and there I there could be some truth to it, but I know a lot of good researchers have have run into some of those questions.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:27

When you put that on a on a duck and you pitch it in the air, does it react? Does it with that does it act like, oh my gosh, something on my back?

SPEAKER_08 1:26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:36

Yeah, it it depends. Sometimes they fly great. Uh sometimes they really have to get it preened in before they're feeling comfortable enough to really move around.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:44

So the reason I ask is when we first started the Hunt in the Country television show, I've went to North Dakota and filmed a with the U.S. Fish and Wildlifeers banding some some some ducks, and it was a it was a late summer, and and they had fed them, and these ducks would make this huge push up to this bait. And the ducks in the front didn't want to go up there because they knew something was fixing to happen, but the ducks in the back were pushing, and they just it was just the most fascinating thing. But at the end of the day, when you would hold up a duck and put a band on their leg, they would drop that leg like you had put an anvil. And you know that a band weighs nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:21

But they they would you would throw them in the air and they'd fly off and that leg would be hanging down.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it it freaks them out for sure at the start, and there's all sorts of other, you know, gang of rocket that shot over you wouldn't be a real pleasant experience in the first place.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:35

I mean, my wedding band took a while to get used to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:38

Yeah. That's true. Yeah, they they definitely notice it, but they they adapt pretty quick.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:43

So what questions are we not asking? What what's something interesting that you need to tell us that we're not asking about in terms of migration or red oaks or any new studies or yeah, game farm mallards uh is a big topic right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:58

So releasing these kind of European-strained mallards uh into the population mostly for recreation. Clubs have been doing it out in the Atlantic flyway for a long time. There's still clubs even across the country doing it. Uh, but they're really driving a lot of hybridization. So this is all, again, people a lot smarter than me, Phil Lovetsky at uh Texas and um El Paso uh really getting into this and drilling down into it. But there's a pretty high proportion of of Atlantic flyaway mallards and Great Lakes mallards that are not native North American mallards. They're these introduced game far mallards that were bred to be smaller, uh different morph metrics, so they're even their bill morphology is different, so they're more equipped to eat like big seeds like corn and and pellet feed, basically. And we know that's having some influence on on our kind of native North American mallards.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:52

So you think it's making them more vulnerable and not as successful to nest and so forth. So just want to get make it clear what you're saying is that practice is not good for disease.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:03

No, no. Uh and it's probably influencing even migration distributional things to where these ducks might be.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:09

There's there's nothing about that that sounds like it can be.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:13

Yeah, yeah, and there's I it's pretty emergent. I mean, that's it's fairly recent, uh, and we're kind of getting involved in some of that and starting to use transmitters paired with those genetic data to to really think about if those ducks are moving around the landscape differently and and how kind of how much affinity they have to urban areas versus more natural WRP and moist soil type areas.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:38

Yeah, well, I'll just say that's a good hope and pray if something is definitively proven with quantitative scrubbed perfect research to be detrimental to wild game and wildlife, that it's addressed in banned and doesn't allow to keep getting going going on just because of whatever monetary or financial reasons.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:02

So one of Oh my god, probably one of the biggest negatives, one of the biggest negatives that I think Lavretsky's work has clearly shown is that these same game farm alerts are really what's driving hybridization with black ducks. Uh that's yeah. Which is data's also showing that there's still a pretty distinct black duck lineage that's kind of staying separate from that. But apparently these game farm allards will mate with anything. Uh so that's really where we think we think they're driving a lot of that hybridization with with black ducks and model ducks, uh, these introduced mallards.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:35

Well, you know, look, well, we sh I started off mentioning the black duck. It's one it probably my favorite duck. Yeah. And I can think of a handful, I don't think I've killed but a couple. But just the thought sometimes I've been in the blindfold.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:48

We kill them every hunt back in the crazy. Late 70s into the 80s, right there. I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:53

I've been hunting on Toxas Plus when a group of milers swung by in the sunshine and somebody said there's a black duck, and it's like nobody says anything. We might not even shoot into that group just because we know how rare it is. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:05

And to think that something might be damaging the lineage of the But I mean, we don't and this is that was a different place because that was actually at the Cottrell Lake. That's the only place we had at the time. And I guess they had used that over the years and were coming back every year. But I skipped to where we've got north of there ten miles and got so much stuff now, uh, we don't even see one a year. No, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:30

You can always tell around us if you've had a big storm system in the northeast, we stop you you and if you're hunting in especially northeast Arkansas, you'll pick up a few black ducks. Or if you have a big river in the white, white and caches up and there's a big push out of the northeast, they'll come down to Ohio and you pick some up. But it's a the Chris and them guys, when I was hunting with them in Ohio and killed a black duck, I was excited. And one of the guys we was hunting with was a writer by the name of Rick Nimichek, and he was hunting with me years ago, and we killed a black duck at home. He said, Man, Jimbo, I remember you getting awfully excited about that. I said, Well, yeah, they're pretty much kind of a trophy at home. You know, you shoot a black duck, you it's a cool deal. And you know, they shoot them pretty regular up there. So pretty neat.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:11

Yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna go to the house. We have seen hybrids. Have you? We've uh quite a few had the glazed green head. Yep. You know? Yep.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:21

Yeah, well, good luck.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:22

Keep us posted on that because that's anything that yeah, Phil Lavretsky would be another he gives great talks, really, really neat guy. So maybe we'd get him to write an article.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:34

Yeah, we could. Uh look, we're we will love ducks. Anything that uh that that could be detrimental, we will figure out.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:43

One thing we should all strive for in love of the wild is the We're scared of the truth. Yeah. And let's just let the let the truth have sunlight and let the chips fall where they may. I mean, you know, it may be something detrimental to us, but you know what? We'll have to shift gears and do something different, I guess. But yeah. What we don't need to do is hide the truth.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:04

Yeah. Well, and that's I'm in a really neat position, and and Dr. Osborne and I are in a really neat position with our partnership with Mr. George at Five Oaks is we can pursue some of these questions that I mean typically university studies wouldn't address and really really use management and I mean the resource holders, the stakeholders in all this to help guide guide our research. And that's been a really neat neat opportunity through this program.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:33

So look, uh we're we're at at this stage of the conversation. I think I'd like to turn it over to Dudley and let him do some rapid fire questions to you. Oh, rapid fire time. So Ryan, these are gonna be pointed at you now. We've got a little segment we call rapid fire, and it's brought to you by our friends at Springfield Armory. Lanny, you had your pistol on your hip the other day.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:54

I'm gonna tell you what, that's a that's a serious piece of equipment, is the best I can put it, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:59

They're nice pistols, they sure are. All right, so Ryan, so Dudley's got some questions. You just we're gonna turn over the phone.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:06

Sorry, this is this is terrifying. A or B, yes or no? Boom, boom, boom. You can pick one or say neither. So there's not a wrong answer. Okay. Just let everybody get to know you a little bit better. All right. All right.

SPEAKER_09 1:34:20

Are you ready? Yes, sir. All right. Duck meat or deer meat? Duck. Fried or grilled? Grilled. Hearts or gizzards? Ooh.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:29

Gizzards. Good man.

SPEAKER_09 1:34:32

Uh semi-auto or over and under? Semi-auto. Divers or dabblers. Dabblers. Boat or blind or natural hunting? Natural. Public or private. Oh! Private. Camera or shotgun? Both. Sony or Canon?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:56

Oh, neither.

SPEAKER_09 1:34:57

Oh, whoa. Are you a Nikon man? I am. I am a Nikon man. I love you even more. Uh blind food, sweet or salty. That's sweet. Alright. Always. Single read or double read. Single. Finally, which is cooler? Hybrid duck or Jack Minor banded duck?

SPEAKER_03 1:35:15

Hybrid. I gotta take hybrid. I'm a hybrid guy myself. I I know where that Jack Minor band came from right away.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:30

It was good. Good job.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:33

I'm glad I didn't disappoint. No, no. But but top too many tracks, public or private, because it's like, I'm gonna have to be honest, but I don't want to say it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:35:44

Rob and I were talking about these questions earlier, and we were talking about the cameras, so I gotta rib Robin. Yeah, I'm sorry. I was I was like, is it Nikon or Canon? And he was like, a lot of people are shooting Sony now, so it's probably more of a Sony or Canon.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:59

Yeah. No, I I've I've talked about switching some.

SPEAKER_09 1:36:02

I was the Nikon guy back in my day as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:04

Yeah, we started out on Nikons too. Fiercely loyal. Love it.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:08

Well, look, let's let's do this now. So uh now we'll ask a trivia question of both of you guys. Oh if y'all get it right, one of our listeners will win a prize, and so we turn it over to Mac here.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:19

So Mike and if they get it wrong, we're still gonna give them a prize. Oh good. Oh, even better. It takes the pressure off. I like that.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:26

Yeah, so we've got uh we've got a lot, we've got this Nozzler number nine edition, and we've got a Princeton headlight that we can give away this week. So nice.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:36

And a case of chips. I've read my Nozzler a whole case. A whole case of chips. Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:42

Dudley has cracked into every case of chips.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:44

Yeah, minus the ones that Dudley ate out of there.

SPEAKER_09 1:36:47

I uh I've got a Nozzler eight right by the bed, and I've got it memorized, and uh I don't reload a lot, but it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:55

It it it it actually is, and we'll get Dudley to sign this advantage. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:59

That would lower the value.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:03

Yeah. Yeah. So I think this question, if I'll go ahead and say this, I I think you guys will knock this one out of the park, but I think some of our listeners will learn something if they'll pay attention.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:14

Oh, what if they don't, Bobby? You've embarrassed them. We're gonna try.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:18

Yeah, you can you can phone a friend, either one of you can phone a friend next to you. All right, so we're playing for J M Hearn. And uh if they get this right, J M, reach out to us on Gamekeepers at Mawseyoak.com. That's G-A-M-E-K-E-E-P-E-R-S at Mossy Oak. Wow, wow. Good job, Matt.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:41

Passed the spelling test for today, didn't he?

SPEAKER_06 1:37:43

I just want to make sure make sure he gets his prize. There you go. All right. All right, so the question is what is the term used to describe the ducks when ducks and geese turn vertical in flight to drop rapidly in altitude?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:01

Whiffling.

SPEAKER_09 1:38:05

Wow. That was a bit correct. Wait, say that again. Whiffling. Okay. You know, we had a whole series, whiffling wings. Yeah. Yeah. The Mike Tyson series. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:21

That's good, Tyson.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:22

That's really good.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:23

Now I did hear the term the other day on the spec hunt. One fella called it chink a pennin.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:27

Huh? Chinka penin'.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:28

Have no idea where it came from. I've heard it called waffling too. I don't know. Waffling, wiffling, something.

SPEAKER_09 1:38:34

I heard that question yesterday and I did not know the answer. So yeah, now I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:39

Landon, you were you gonna say waffling? Well, I thought I was I thought I was gonna get answer. So you know I should confuse. Yeah, but I was gonna say waffling.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:46

Yeah, well, that's pretty close. So well, Dudley, have you got ask uh Dudley question?

SPEAKER_09 1:38:51

I do. Um guy named Craig sent this in. Um and it's uh similar to what some of the stuff we've been talking about. Uh Dudley, can you give me some tips for getting y'all seedlings established in an area that typically floods? We're in a hunting camp inside the levee uh on the Mississippi River, kind of near Greenville, Mississippi.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:14

Great question. Great question. I'm listening in.

SPEAKER_09 1:39:16

And that can probably go into the you know the duck hole thing. We probably need to cover that as well while we're here. But uh I've sold a lot of uh trees and tubes to folks that are inside the levee, and you know, a lot of times the the river gets up gets up and and floods. Um but what I have learned just from uh reading and learning uh and and do it myself and feedback from customers is that uh one of the best ways to do that is to mitigate your risk by splitting your planting season. So if you can do a little bit of fall planting and a little bit of spring planting, because oftentimes you don't know when you're gonna get that flood. Um and then uh another thing is just try to pick uh when you're planting trees, try to pick just there may even be a three-inch difference in elevation. Um so uh instead of just planting on a twenty-five by twenty five grid or whatever, uh go out of your way to try to pick little bitty micro sites where where there may be a higher elevation.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:31

So a bigger issue is not whether it got flooded for a month or two, but that it's in standing water for months at a time. That's issue.

SPEAKER_09 1:40:39

Yeah. Um and if it if it gets over the head of the seedling, that can be more detrimental because it it can't breathe. That the tip is is covered in water. Uh the colder the water, the better. Uh if there's movement in the water, that's better. So you know, stagnant or warmer water is worse. Um but it it's it's really all over the place. I've had customers uh you remember the year that uh the South Delta flooded so much. I had people tell me that they had trees underwater completely submerged for seven months and still had 80% survival. Wow. And then I've had customers that you know did have the moving water in the winter that lost a lot more. And that could have been maybe the soil eroding around the roots, you know, almost like creating a little eddy or a swirl where the where the root um so if you had to choose though, one or the other, would you say if you can get your water off immediately after duck season, that'd be the best time. Yes. And and I guess since we're on this subject, if this is a a duck impoundment that you can control the water on, um first I would say if you have one duck hole, I probably, as much as I want you guys to buy my trees, I would probably say don't just have your one duck hole covered in oak trees. Oh no, not completely.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:06

Or plant them along the bank, maybe. Right. Yeah, plant them along the bank where it's a big thing.

SPEAKER_09 1:42:11

We have a lot of folks doing that. Plant them along the bank where the acorns can fall in.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:15

The leaves are just as beneficial for the they'll sure crawl up on a dry bank to eat a eat acreage. This may sound like a cap and obvious answer, but make sure you're planting species-specific trees to a bottomland area. Obviously.

SPEAKER_09 1:42:29

So um here in the south, we typically do a mix of willow oak and nut all oak. Uh, if you want to get crazy with it, um, I would say the order of flood tolerance, and you may disagree, would be uh nut all, then willow, and the further north you've got pin oak, which is probably tied with willow oak, and then you start getting into uh water oak and cherry bark. Um and those would be water oak and cherry bark would be the ones you would want to flood the latest and get the water off the soonest. Um and if you are gonna plant trees in a duck hole and flood it every year and keep the water on for a really long time, don't. You'll you'll be let down. You may want to do some moist soil stuff instead. So it's good. Yeah, and and if you've got any questions that are specific to your particular scenario, don't hesitate to email me uh nursery at molseyok.com and I'll try and get you a specific answer.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:35

He'll get you fixed up.

SPEAKER_09 1:43:36

Good stuff right there.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:37

Yeah, yeah. We well, we should have enjoyed having y'all. Yeah, this is a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:40

Thank you all for having here. Yeah. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:42

We've learned a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:43

We have as much fun as you do. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:46

Well, that's good, because I had a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:48

That's good. One more quick question along those lines. So, how how big of an acre is too big for you almost we almost got by without that question. That's a good one. So are are nut alls too big for them?

SPEAKER_03 1:44:02

No. No. Nutalls are not too big. Uh it's when you get into like delta post oak and uh even chumard. Ooh, delta post and shumard. Yeah. Schumard's getting pretty big. And I I've definitely heard that they can. They can. I I don't have to be a little bit more than a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:19

The only one I've seen as a kid, I saw on many occasions I saw wood ducks stuffed all the way down from the back of their beak all the way down with swamp chestnuts. Oh wow. Wow. And yes, and I I've never seen another duck eat them before, but I think a wood duck will eat any acre. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:37

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's hopefully with this DNA data, this this diet study will have you back in a year and I'll deal with that. Give me a better answer.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:45

I can't wait to hear about that.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:47

Yeah. Ronner, did you ever watch our television show on the outdoor channel? Oh, yeah. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:51

So Richie, talk about putting him on the spot. Do you expect him to say no? Do y'all have a TV show?

unknown 1:44:56

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:57

Game what? Richie, let's hook up with him. I bet you he's got some subject matters for television that would be off the off the charts. I imagine so. Yeah. So would you would you make a promise? Promise, you'll look into it. Richie woke up. Good to promise me, Richie, that you'll look into that. I'll do what I can.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:15

Words from the mountaintop right there. There you go. Public record.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:18

Yeah, so Ryan, thank you for being here. Jim, y'all traveled all the way down. And I know y'all got to get back because you're trying to put boards in some risers this evening before.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:27

That rain toxic talking about is coming. It's going to hit us before it hits you in first. I just hope. Hey, I don't want to talk about it. Never mind. Yeah. Don't say right now. I don't want Janks.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:36

I have enough stuff stopped up that I'm I'm probably comfortable.

SPEAKER_09 1:45:39

I'm just going to say this. My family is setting up a tailgate Saturday, so it is going to rain.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:46

Oh, yeah. We don't have to worry about that. That'll do it. You may be right. Maybe in the star. Cutting hail will do it every time.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:55

So look, guys, we'd uh we would appreciate if you'd watch the TV show Tuesday nights, the gamekeepers of Mossy Uc. Y'all check us out. Uh if you enjoy the podcast, please share it with your friends. Subscribe to it, give us a review. You might even win a prize. So we've had a lot of fun. I'm looking at Toxie. If you've got anything else you want to cover or points you want to cover, I know your stomach's rumbling.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:14

I'm thinking, do we can we make it under the wire for fried chicken? It's gonna be close. Show us some fried chicken.

SPEAKER_07 1:46:20

Yeah, well, don't stand in front of Lanny, but between Lanny and the door when this is over with. So say goodbye, Dudley.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:26

Oh, no, I'm sorry. Sorry, sorry? One one last shameless plug. Oh, good. With this Five Oaks program, we're we're trying to train the next generation of science-based gamekeepers. So we've got four graduate certificate students right now that we're training up. We're giving them science background through UAM. Uh they're getting the habitat, the hands-on equipment operation experience at Five Oaks. Uh, and we're just if there's anybody looking for for new managers uh that they're looking to hire in the next few years, we should be pumping four great fresh people out every every single year. So four goals.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:03

Yeah, and and have y'all got a like uh a uh Instagram hand. We've got an Instagram, yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:08

So it's Faux Rec, which is Five Oaks Ag Research and Education Center. Uh we've got a website. You can just Google Five Oaks and you should be able to find the research center. Yeah. So that would be fantastic. Yeah, really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:21

Okay. All right, Jim, you got anything?

unknown 1:47:23

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:23

Man, uh yeah, just plug uh check out drakewaterfowl.com. There you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:28

That's that sounds good. All right, say goodbye, Dudley. Goodbye, Dudley. Get us out of here, Mac Mac.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:33

Quack, quack, quack.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:37

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Game Keeper Podcast. And be sure to tune in again. Subscribe to Game Keeper Farming for Wildlife magazine, and don't miss the Macio Properties Fist Full of Dirt podcast with my good buddy, Ronnie Cuz Strickland.