EP:405 | [Timely Classic 298] Dr. Chamberlain Talks Deer Management

This week, we release a timely classic on our conversation with Dr. Mike Chamberlain to talk through some of the latest whitetail management techniques he’s seeing. Over the last fifty years, the landscape has changed and whitetails are clearly king! But what’s changed, and what can we learn? His recent trip to South Texas leads us to ask about the story of his buck and what he sees that those intensively managed ranches are doing that works. As always when Mike joins us, it’s an interesting discussion.

Listen, Learn and Enjoy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I am Jeff Foxworthy and welcome to Gamekeeper Podcast. If you want to learn more about farming for wildlife and habitat management, then buddy, you are in the right place. Join the Gamekeeper crew direct from Office Yoke Land Enhancement Studio as they discuss the latest wildlife and habitat management practices. News, and of course, honey. There's no telling what you'll learn, but I'm gonna tell you, I bet it's interesting. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_08 0:27

Here we go. We're live in three, two, one.

SPEAKER_06 0:30

All right, everybody, here we are. It's early January. Yeah. It's it is really cold. Cold got me wanting to move south. Most of the country is under.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

I mean, no, but it's headed there. And if there's there ought to be some ducks on the way. Should be. We hope so. That hadn't been what's happening lately. No, it hadn't been. We are in the lull. Turkey season or deer season. We're in the lull right now.

SPEAKER_06 0:56

So, Toxie, you've missed the last couple of podcasts. Do you have an uh an excuse or a note from your doctor or anything?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Absolutely not. Actually, from the chairman of the board. If you if you have an issue with it, why don't you just call Miss Diane? I'm out.

SPEAKER_06 1:10

So that that's an excuse right there. There you go. It's family time. Y'all know. Mark that time, Code. He's got his excuse absence.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

I am off the grid the week after Christmas. In fact, you look refreshed. I'm better. I'm better.

SPEAKER_05 1:22

That's something Bobby would say.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:23

He does look refreshed.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

So we go the annual routine. This is 27 straight years. Long time. Christmas in our place in Alabama. But Mike's been there. Yes, he has. And uh and to be back too. But we I get to go down, a treat for me is like the 22nd or 23rd, and actually just then do I get to decorate and do all the Christmas decorating, which I'm a nut job for decorating for Christmas, as y'all know. I love doing it. So I get to do that all over again. And so we don't, and I would, you know, if I'm wrong, correct me, but the biblical Christmas season begins Christmas. That is right and goes for 12 days after that. I think it's 12. I thought it was 12. But again, if I'm wrong, forgive me out there. But the point is, that's when we actually get to start. So we're like all week long, we're not taking anything down. We're celebrating Christmas all that week and all the kids and grandkids and everything now. So it is a festive time. It just goes by so fast.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

Yeah, it does. Good times.

SPEAKER_06 2:23

Good times to be outside.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 2:25

Let's go ahead. Well, let's get Mike in the conversation. Absolutely. So on through the magic of Zoom, we've got Dr. Mike Chamberlain.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

What's this big? My name is Sheriff Buffett John. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

It can relate to that one.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Is that a custom sound bite? Yeah, it is. It says Mike on it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Well, for sure. The only person on the planet that can outstump Bobby on the trivia.

SPEAKER_06 2:51

He's something else when it comes to stuff with the bandit. He's got it. So Mike, is everybody are y'all uh kind of down in the dumps over there at Georgia? What's uh could can you not like maybe with all this money that you're getting for turkeys, can you give them a little NIL help or something about that?

SPEAKER_03 3:08

No, they could the athletic department could slide me a you know a couple mil that would be helpful. I could I could answer some questions I'm currently unable to answer. That's a great idea. I don't know if people are sad or not. I can tell you I'm not. It's not a big deal that the season's over. Um I don't pay a whole lot of attention to football because I'd rather be in a deer stand or a duck blonde.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

And um why does that not surprise me at all? Kindred spirits there. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 3:35

I don't know. That tailgate food. No, that just pulls me in. Man.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

That's like for lock on with a lifeline on, you know, and a peanut butter. I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_06 3:47

No, that sounds like Mike Chamberlain for sure. He you know, he he's the wild turkey doc, but he's equally passionate about everything. Really, truly. I mean, I think Mike loves to hunt. You've been all over the world, if I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

I have. Yeah, I've been very blessed to to uh have a wife that's tolerant to me being gone and spending our resources at times to travel and and see cool places. And yeah, I've uh I've been I've been blessed in that regard in my life, that's for certain.

SPEAKER_06 4:21

So with everything you've gotten to hunt, if you just if some how you had said somebody said you can only hunt one more animal, what what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Well, I have to say turkeys, right? I mean, if I answer anything other than turkeys, it would be blasphemy. Um but I don't know, man. I I think you just like to hunt. I do. I I like to hunt. I mean, yeah. I would probably say if you told me you you can't do anything else, um I would say I would say turkey hunt, but gosh, man. I don't know. Fall deer season.

SPEAKER_07 5:02

You love deer deer. Yeah, you're giving up a lot of deer meat.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

I love yeah, I love the deer hawk deer hunt, and we rely so heavily on venison in our house. My I mean we eat it multiple times a week. My daughter is eating it at college, and it's just such a staple of our lives from a you know from a consumption standpoint. That and that being said, we did we did fry turkey nuggets last night. So man, you're putting me in a tough pickle here.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

But uh I just you know I've always said that, you know, put a gun to my head. Someone you say, put a gun to your head, what do you you can only do one thing? And I was like, uh, man, I love it all, but I guess turkeys. And then later in life, I like everything so much, I go just pull the trigger.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

As I sit here and think more about it, and people may get upset with me for saying this, but I don't get absolutely in a wreck shook up shooting a turkey. And I have to remind myself to breathe when I kill a really nice deer. Yeah. Like I I have to tell myself, you're hyperventilating, um, you're gonna have to settle down or you're gonna pass out in the floor of the stand. Or my hands are shaking so violently that I can't, I can't, you know, I'm trying to text somebody to say, you know, I just I just killed him, and the text looks like garbly goop because my hand is, you know, I and I don't get like that with turkeys. I get I get very nervous, but I get I get very introspective when I kill a turkey. I get absolutely distraught when big antlers hit the ground. It it just tears me up.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

Yeah, I don't I don't think I've ever felt guilty about killing a whitail. But turkeys, I've been like, man, I kind of hate this guy's dead now. I can't chase him anymore. Or he can't he can't make me mad at at him anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_06 7:10

Well well, they affect us all differently. That's that's one thing for sure. So but Mike, hang on just one second. Let us knock out a little business here. I'm gonna turn us to a little blood on the biologic, and I'm gonna look at you, Toxie. I think there was a special one you might have had.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Um oh yeah, you're talking about Daniel? Well, you got that my granddaughter. That's actually her. She threw Christmases in a row now. So Yeah, good friend. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 7:34

I heard she really likes pulling the trigger.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

She does. All right.

SPEAKER_06 7:37

Well, let's say her name if we can.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Keby Stubbs. There we go. Name for my mom. Yeah. My daughter's daughter, and my son-in-law Vandy, y'all hear us refer to sometimes. She's got a twinkle in her eyes. You know, the day before, Diane and I both went and took her. And she just, I guess it was the dust or something from the shooting house we were in. But she started coughing, and we did see a pretty good deer, but she coughed really loud. He was gone. But, you know, we didn't have any luck, and I guess the coughing didn't help anything. But when she went with her dad the next day, they busted one. Got it done. Yeah, it's it's always a really perfect time. Um, it's just right at the beginning of the serious hot rut. They're probably locked down. That was last week, so like right now they're like whatever you call that, where it's just so you know, it's not as good. Now, this cold weather probably has them moving a lot better. But last week it was high as in the 70s.

SPEAKER_06 8:34

So I got a couple. We got uh a guy named uh Matt Zerbel. I hope I'm pronouncing that last. He emailed me. His son uh Sawyer killed his first deer in Alabama last week. It was a spike. The kid look had a huge smile and had blood on his face, so you know there's a lot of excitement and fun going on. And then our own uh Rusty uh McDaniel's son, both his boys, E. White, killed nice deer. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

I just want to be their agent someday in baseball. They're unbelievable, both of them.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

What you got? Uh Charles Alan Rayleigh. He's on the board, Jesse. Yes, right. And how about that? I forgot about that. That was a sweet one. That's a good one. He put in some out of the time. He did. Both of his kids put in some time this year, so that's well that's good.

SPEAKER_06 9:18

Yeah, congratulations. I've got one more. There's a guy named Brandon Gardner who uh who lives in South Carolina. He is a game board over in South Carolina. It's today is his 40th birthday.

SPEAKER_05 9:29

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_06 9:30

And his wife uh emailed, Allison emailed and said, hey, it would make his day if y'all gave him a shout-out. So we're giving him a shout-out a week late, but nonetheless. But he also I've asked that if if doing this might give Lanny, if you ever violated a law in South Carolina, it might help you out. So I'm doing this for you.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

I appreciate it. Thank you. He's never even been there, so I can violate him.

SPEAKER_06 9:50

Yeah, but it's probably in his future. So Brandon, happy birthday. Yeah, young man at 40. That's all right. I've got one more thing. You know how we do these quotes sometimes? Or I say I say we, I usually do quote quotes. Yeah. And we're like, who said that? All right. So y'all Mike, I want you involved in this. I'm gonna read a quote. Tell me who uh who said this, okay?

SPEAKER_02 10:10

I think Mike was enjoying just being an innocent bystander for the moment. Get drawn into it.

SPEAKER_06 10:16

Is this name the quote quote quoteur? The quoteur. I like that. All right. If you consider an unsuccessful hunt a waste of time, then the true meaning of the chase eludes you all together. That would be Mike Chamberlain, I would have said.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Hmm. That sounded like something.

SPEAKER_06 10:33

That is Fred Bear.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

Yeah, Chamberlain's killing it already. And the more you learn about Fred Bear, the cooler he gets. Like he could get any cooler, but it's it is.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

But you it sounds like something you would have said too, Dr. Mike. It's something I certainly subscribe to.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Yeah. There's something so therapeutic and so so beautiful about the peace and quiet and nature. It's sure. It sure is.

SPEAKER_06 10:59

Yeah, it is. And I'm glad that you know, I'm proud that we can recognize that and and and try to show it to other people.

SPEAKER_04 11:07

Yeah, the creation. I mean, there it is.

SPEAKER_06 11:09

Last but not least, guys, we are giving away an avid boat in bottom land. You can hunt out of this, you can fish out of this. Mike, you might get win this.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

I think you could win it. These things are incredible.

SPEAKER_06 11:20

It is an unbelievable rig. It's got a custom trailer, it's got a 40 horsepower Yamaha. Yamaha. Yamaha. It is really nice. It's very nice.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

And look, they've really thought out on the design, the way the box is open, the way the instrumentation is.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

I don't know that I've been more impressed with the boat's construction design than I have these avids. They're incredible.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

It is 100% on my wish list, Bobby.

SPEAKER_05 11:44

I mean, you could you could go catch some redfish and speckle tribe. You can do anything in it.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

Yeah, you can do anything in it.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

It's a Swiss Army knife. A really, really, really nice Swiss Army knife.

SPEAKER_05 11:55

And it's it just looks good.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

So all you gotta do is go to the Gamekeeper uh website, montiogame keeper.com, and click on the Game Keeper giveaway. That's the coolest thing we've ever done.

SPEAKER_05 12:03

I send it to all my friends because I can't win it. Yeah, maybe they'll take you right a minute.

SPEAKER_06 12:08

All right, Mike. We're gonna let let's let's we're gonna look at you and we're gonna we want to talk about deer management basically from Texas to Georgia up to New York, Pennsylvania. Because there's some different things that go on in those regions. And some of the things are super successful, maybe some aren't. We'd like to learn what's going on. We'd like to learn how maybe we could apply some of those techniques to a to the guys listening could help with their properties. But you're one person that's traveled a lot and seen a bunch of these places. Can you talk to us and tell us about what's some of the things that you're seeing that is impressing you right now?

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Oh gosh, I mean across that geographic extent, there's so so many differences. I mean, like here in Georgia, and uh as you know, across a lot of the South, you know, folks are they're using timber harvest, uh they're trying to manage vegetation, they're using fire, they're planting forage plots, whether it'd be you know fall, winter hunting plots or summer forage plots or both. Obviously, you have you have the use of of supplemental feeding where it's legal in in many areas. And um what I see in my travels, at least in my neck of the woods, is there are just tens and tens of thousands of acres that are managed very intensively for for one animal, um and that being white-tailed deer. You know, I mean other species are secondarily benefiting from it in many cases like wild turkeys, but but gosh, I mean you've got this animal that dominates the psyche of so many people, and they're willing to put so much resource into managing the landscape to benefit that that animal. It's it's pretty wild. And then as you know, I mean, you I know y'all have traveled out you go out towards Texas, and it's a it's a whole different world. I mean, it the South Texas plains and some of the the large properties that you will visit out there and see the level of stewardship and the amount of resources that they're putting on the landscape for deer and other species is it's almost mind-boggling. Um and then you you know, you go up, you you travel up towards the northeast and you start seeing that a lot of what we just talked about is is largely, you know, not in play. You see a you know big tracts of large tracts of of timber. Uh you see, you know, totally different deer hunting than you would see that that I think most of us are used to, at least in the deep south. You've got big woods and you've got deer that are less predictable than they may be here, and it's just a totally different ball game. Um just speaks to the to me in a lot of ways, it speaks to how adaptable whitetails are that they can thrive in all of those different landscapes. Um and it also speaks to how sly we are as deer hunters, you know, wherever we are, we're going to manage whatever resources we have on the landscape to benefit you know the animal that we're passionate about pursuing.

SPEAKER_06 15:29

You just got back from Texas, I think. Can you tell us a deer story from from out there?

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Oh yeah, yeah, I've got us I've got a couple of good ones from out there. Yeah, I I was I had never hunted deer. I've hunted turkeys in Texas quite a bit. I I I've never hunted deer in in South Texas until recently. And I was invited to travel to a property that's owned by one of my clients. And and it, you know, I was I was obviously familiar with with management in in South Texas, but but this particular property, I I had kind of viewed it from the lens of a wild turkey and uh this particular landowner, they do a tremendous amount of of vegetation management to benefit bobwhites, which are an important species for them. Um and the amount of resources and the amount of diligence that's put into some of those properties is quite it's astonishing. When you when you talk to the landowners, you talk to the land managers, you talk to the staff, and you see how much work they're willing to put into sustaining a deer herd that's of the quality that you see on many properties in South Texas is is pretty astonishing. I mean, the property I was on, the vegetation management alone, the roller chopping and the amount of brush clearing and and fire application and herbicide application and soil disturbance and soil amendments and all the things that this family has put into the land to increase nutritional value, to increase early successional habitats, to create high quality deer brows, it's it's it's remarkable. And then when you see the the I mean there was a covey of bob whites are literally around every corner of wild bobwites. I mean, everywhere we traveled, we I hunted bot wild bobwites for the first time in in years, and which was which was so cool. And to bump into a covey, you know, to to make a walk for 20 minutes and bump into four cubbies and do that over and over and over. It's just it was it was certainly eye-opening and um and the deer hunting was jammed up as as as you know. I uh I crossed paths with a real giant, and uh I was still on cloud nine in some ways. He he was quite an animal. That's cool. Wow.

SPEAKER_06 18:06

Yeah, the the picture of him, he looked like he had some long time.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

He sure did. He did. He uh I saw that deer actually at a distance the first afternoon. The first time I saw him, it was in an afternoon, and he was quite some ways from me, and he never he never came close to me. He came close enough just for me to get an idea that he was big and that he had really long twos and threes. And um the second time I saw him, I saw him close enough to shoot, and and but the it didn't work out. I was in a really weird situation and where I was set up. And I thought he saw me, to be honest with you. I I thought he saw me in the stand that I was set in. And he just gave me an eye, like you know, you you've seen that eye. You've seen that eye where you're like, he knows something is not right, but he's not spooked. He he didn't run off, he didn't blow, he didn't do any of that. He just kind of walked off with that ears laid back, cut his eyes at you, that look that gives makes me sick in my stomach when I see it. Um, you know the look. Oh, yeah. Landing gives it to that. That that was in the morning, and and so we decided to move and kind of do something different and actually erect a little brush ground line and try to cut him off from where we thought he was coming from, thinking that he probably wouldn't walk out into that uh into that field. It was a very large field, so large you could you couldn't shoot across it. And and sure enough, um it's about to get dark, and I haven't seen him, and I'm like, oh my gosh, he saw me this morning, he's done. That's it. And I was really getting frustrated. Uh and all of a sudden, there he is. He pops out of the mesquite, and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's him. And I didn't get I didn't get nervous, which is unusual for me, as I've mentioned. I didn't get shook up until after I shot. And then when I realized I saw him go down, I knew he was exactly where he was laying, and that feeling never gets old. No.

SPEAKER_06 20:18

What do those deer in that part of Texas what kind of what's a top-end body weight?

SPEAKER_03 20:25

He weighed 182, I believe, but that's post-rut. So he, you know, he would have been well over 200 pounds during the rut. One thing I didn't I did notice compared to say deer in my where I hunt in Louisiana, and certainly, certainly here, he his body frame was a lot shorter, you know, than than some of the really long deer that we kill at my camp in Louisiana. I would say pretty comparable to the body frame that of deer that we have here.

SPEAKER_06 20:59

To ask you about that was that I you know, I pay attention to whitetails all over the range. And it seems like South Texas grows some monster racks and some big bodies. And isn't that kind of an anomaly to Bergman's rule? Because it it seems like they wouldn't have as big a bodies.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Yeah, to some degree it is, but the same that same flaw in Bergman's rule is evident in South Central Louisiana, too, for instance. So we at my camp there, we've routinely we've killed bucks that exceeded 300 pounds several times. We've killed a number of bucks. I I can't even begin to count how many we've killed, you know, over 250, between 250 and 225 or 280. And and and some of those deer have extremely long body frames that that in many ways can be traced back to to the origin of you know where those deer were brought from when they Were released during restoration. Um, and then you'll flip around, and on the same property, you'll kill a deer that has a small body frame, and he maxes out as a five or six-year-old at 225, and then there's a you know, the next deer that that's shot maxes out at 280, same same age class. Yeah. So some of these southern latitudes, depending on the management and the genetics, can kind of throw a monkey wrench in Bergman's rule.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

It's kind of like the deer movement, you know. We go through all this stuff and the moon phases and all the different things. Deer movement, but would you agree, Doc? Nothing trumps weather as far as deer movement and affecting deer movement. It's complex, or someone would have hemmed it all up, but weather, and so the same thing I think you can talk about, I guess you call it Bergman's rule, but nothing trumps generations of great nutrition. So we kill uh Dudley knows more than me, but uh Mississippi Delta and over near the levee here, they kill 240, 250, you know, over around above Yazoo City used to kill 300-pound deer, 280-pound deer, right here in Mississippi. Yeah. So, but you know, you go to the coastal plains and you know, uh 150 maybe an average mature deer, just on the other side of the state, and it's all about the nutrition and not just like overnight nutrition, but you know, a generation of it. And so that trumps like you that'll trump any, you know, rule of I think the if you call it the Burmese, I think it's a generality to how the species has evolved from north to south, but it's certainly not a hard rule.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Yeah, it's and you see some of the same thing with turkeys too, and other species where they it it it's not a hard and fast rule. The the your comment about the weather uh is actually comical in some ways. Here we are sitting here talking to each other. On a great day to hunt, too. And it is stunningly gorgeous here. It is 40 degrees. You see the bright behind me. This would be the the day to be sitting in a stand, and here we are.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

And actually would have been to go ahead and get in the stand really early, would have been a good productive day for us. Yes, because you know they're going to move early. Oh, they're gonna move like great. Thank you again, Bobby. Thanks, Bobby.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Two o'clock two o'clock Eastern time is a great time for a podcast. Mr.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Fox would always say, he would always say in times like this, he'd say, Bobby's just a great conservationist.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Well, I was giving you all time to go this morning so we could get it out of the system or something.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Well, I think in in the area that you were talking about too, uh, Dr. Chandlin, there's the I I hadn't spent much time there, but I was stunned by the the size of the body, and I started asking about native forage, and they mentioned a couple things. I might mess this up. It's Wahila and I think Blackbrush or something that's down there. And and during when they get rain, it's one of the highest protein food sources that's on the landscape down there. Yep, that's exactly right. To your point about nutrition.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah, I mean, there's I mean, um, what is the guy a long time ago when I was there? He talked about because of the evolution of the plants out there in the soil and the rocks and the drought conditions, the plants that have evolved were so much stronger nutritionally than your average, like wet area type plants. And that was the word he kept using was they're so much stronger nutritionally.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

Yeah, makes sense. There's uh I think Chamberlin, I Dr. Shamlin, too, there's a I think a study just came out and Dudley helped correct me here on weather patterns and how they affect deer movement movement. And what they concluded, and this is a relatively short-scoped study, I think, was that hunter pressure affects deer more movement than pressure. That's right, which is really interesting to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

But even we see we see the same thing with gobbling and turkeys, the exact same thing. That weather affects gobbling activity, but it's far surpassed by hunting pressure.

SPEAKER_05 25:47

I mean, you think about it, uh I I know growing up, uh, you know, where I grew up hunting, there was, you know, it was 40s and 80s and 200s that nobody even set foot on. And then now it seems like every square and rectangle with of land within the vicinity of where you're hunting has people hunting on it now.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

So a trucker.

SPEAKER_05 26:11

That has to make a large impact.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

I think Doc, a great point about hunting pressure too, for people to so we're not just total deby down or like don't go as much or whatever. Um it's really hunting pressure doesn't necessarily equal straight bar equal a shot one or straight bar equal. I went in the woods and went hunting today. I mean, hunting pressure, you know, I think what we're trying to communicate with people is like if you have that kind of minimalist attitude about your footprint on the land, your smell, your sound, your you know, disturbing the, you know, if you can figure out how to get in and out without disturbing them as much and all, I mean, disturbing them is hunting pressure, you know, scaring them, you know, something in the boogeyman's out to get me in my normal woods, that's hunting pressure. But just because you went, so I mean, the I guess I'm getting if you I can the ones that I know that are really good, like him, like I actually keep thinking about Mark Drury. He's so anal about getting to his stands, never disturbing a never, never under any circumstance, hunting on a bad wind. And look at his success rate. So hunting pressure doesn't mean don't go hunting, but I think it means is watch your footprint so much more carefully and don't be Hunt Smart. Yeah, Hunt Smart. So many people are so haphazard about it. And I realize if you're in a spot where a lot of people go, it's hard to do that.

SPEAKER_05 27:33

But and it seems like there's two schools on the pressure thing. Uh, you've got the folks that uh want to sneak in with the perfect wind and and all that, and then you've got the people that are saying, I'm gonna drop this hunter off in a on the four-wheeler and pick them up on the four-wheeler. Um, and so you know, we'll have a podcast guest that says absolutely no motorized vehicles. And then we'll have another one that's like, well, that's part of our strategy. We've gotten our deer used to all those noises.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Well, let me I think it just depends on what they're acclimated to. You know, if they're if they're not acclimated to vehicle traffic, then I I can totally see, you know, like for instance, I I don't like unless I have to. Most of the properties I hunt, they're very no they're very used to four-wheelers, Polaris, you know, ATVs. Of course they'll run off, but they don't just run off to the hills. Um and they're used to that noise. So I like actually, I like dropping people off. I like being dropped off. I like now I will often not stop, you know. I'm I may I may literally like drop and roll out of the out of the range or you know, going by, but um, but I if they're used to that sound, then I I try to take advantage of it.

SPEAKER_05 28:56

I can only assume it's properties that uh you know are using supplemental feed and it's like absolutely they're used to that noise of somebody going on their route and and filling feeders and things. Uh first time.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Even land managers that are just traveling around, you know. If they're used to, you know, I have a client who who he he could drive a truck everywhere on his property that he wanted wants to. His road system is superb and he's put a lot of time and money into it, but he prefers to drive one of his rangers. That's because he's often carrying tools and chainsaws and you know stuff around. So he just gets on his ranger every time he drives his property. So deer on that property are so used to him driving around on that bike that they don't again, they run off when they hear it or see it, but um they don't they don't pay any mind to that. They're so I mean, literally, they're used to it every single day of the year.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

I got taught the lesson a very, very long time ago when I was such a rookie to traveling and hunting anywhere, but I gosh, it would have been 35 or more years ago. And we went to Pacuzos with me. He was filming. We first that the first year we ever filmed anything. And we got invited to go to this place in Texas. We were so excited. Oh my gosh, you know, just the adventure of all that. And so this guy had an old long bed, I can still see it, just beat up old Ford, you know, um, whatever, long wheelbase, and rickety, you know, straight shift and uh boom boom boom boom boom. And he went through in his rocky roads and stuff, and then he was going through, okay, all right, y'all get out of here. And I was like, Where? He's like, right there. And he, I mean, we literally were under the ladder stand where we were gonna get in. And so I was like, You've got to be kidding me. This is nuts. So he said, I'm gonna leave this motor running for just. You said that to yourself, yeah. Yeah. I did. I said it to Cuz too. And so he rolled his eyes and he he climbed up there and put his lock on in right around so we could film and whatever, and the guy motored on up. And literally, before he got out of hearing, we could hear rocks clattering and whatever, and it began to break daylight, and there were deer just everywhere. Hi in the world. He said, all summer long, their guides go through there with all their stands and they go in early before daylight, and they take a bucket of corn and they throw it out and condition the deer when the truck pulls up, they're getting fed. And so when they take people and put them out, they pay they actually not only doesn't bother them, they come running in and see what was going on. So I mean, just you can't condition them, was my point for that long story. It taught that me a long time ago.

SPEAKER_06 31:35

So, Mike, would you s would you say that Texas was one of the leaders as a state in whitetail management back in the day? And there's I don't want to throw any shade on high fences. There's an awful lot of high fences in Texas, but there are some of those that are really large properties, thousands of acres. And these guys are doing some things. Uh though can you kind of just speak a little bit to your experiences around some of those and whether they're pro or or con?

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Yeah, I mean, I mean you see in Texas what you see in other parts of the world in in a lot of cases, which is you know, very, very large, thousands, if not in some cases, hundreds of thousands of acres of private property that are that are fenced for a variety of reasons. They're they're fencing them to keep things out, and they're keep you know, they're fencing those properties to keep things in and to have a a footprint that they they can control. And and I I mean we can debate all day long the you know whether you think that's good, bad, or indifferent. It's just it's the reality of of managing deer herds in in some parts of the world and and Texas, many parts of Texas, not all for sure. Um that's that's the model that you'll often see, you know, very large ranches and and pieces of property that are that are managed in some cases only for white tails, but in a lot of cases, you know, like I recounted for you, that are managed for a variety of species, and they just happen they happen to be fenced. Um interestingly enough, as you probably know, that same model is used in a number of places across the world. If you go to New Zealand, for instance, you're going to you're going to see many, many ranches that are fenced. Uh if you go to Southern Africa, if you have a and I would highly recommend if you're a big game hunter and you have the opportunity, you can hunt in South Africa for cheaper than you can make a number of hunts in North America. And you can kill a number of animals for what you could say hunt an elk in the U.S. for. You're going to see large pieces of property, not not all, there are small pieces of property that are fenced as well, but you're going to see a lot of large ranches that are fenced. And they're and the reason they're doing that again is they're trying to keep things out and they're trying to keep animals in. And interestingly enough, for at least for South Africa, and I've been over there a number of times, as you travel across this landscape, and in many cases it's largely barren of wildlife. Um, and then suddenly you get to uh a set of ranches, tens of thousands of acres that are managed for planes game or or whatever it is, and the wildlife are teeming and not just what you're hunting. It's just almost incomprehensible. The birds you hear, the waterfowl that you see, the guinea fowl that you see, it's just it's it's wild. And it's all contained within a fence. And that's just what again, whether you agree or disagree with it, that's that's the reality of how management is in a lot of the you know, in a lot of the world.

SPEAKER_06 35:04

We hear a lot of people that you know there there's a lot of different opinions about high fences, but we have a lot of people, a lot of smart people like yourself that'll say, you know, boy, I'd if I could have a thousand acres and I could it would allow I all of a sudden I could do the things I want to do and I could control those population numbers and I could plant what I want to plant, I could do this and do that, and I could see the results without having just to constantly hammer those and keep that population in check. But I I've always wondered is you know, I I would think a lot of people listening to this dream of having a place, their own place to hunt, maybe not having may or may not dream of having a probably don't dream about having a high fence in their own place for sure. What would you say like in the deep south would be a a minimum amount of acreage where a a a high fence setup would be you know uh sustain itself?

SPEAKER_03 38:58

Gosh, I mean that's a tough question. I I some of that is dictated by the state. You know, some states have minimum restrictions on the amount of acreage, you know, you that the property has to be a certain size before you you can you know you can't fence 50 acres, for instance. It has to be a certain size. Sorry, Bobby, not be able to fence a minute.

SPEAKER_06 39:19

What would that minimum be?

SPEAKER_03 39:21

I I'll tell you based on my own experiences with with clients that I've worked with, when once you get in the the thousand, you know, the eight hundred, nine hundred thousand acre in that range, you start getting, depending on the topography, you start getting large enough where you can move about. Uh and I'll explain what I mean by that. Um and certainly one, you know, once you start getting in the thousands of acres, in a lot of ways, the the fact that there's a fence there becomes somewhat irr irrelevant for a lot of the animals that are on the property. I mean, there's animals on these very, very large ranches, you know, that don't know a fence exists. Their home range is never, you know, they never even approach and never maintain.

SPEAKER_05 40:15

And then they act just as wild as not having a fence.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Oh look, and I you know, I'll get some haters for this. I I will tell you from my own experiences working with people, um you can you can provide for instance a preseason camera survey for a piece of property and you can say, okay, well let's let's just say it's a thousand acres, and you can say um you have 15 shooters on this, right? So if you're if you think in any stretch of the imagination that all 15 of those bucks are going to get shot because they're in an enclosure, that's fool's gold. Turkeys interact, as you as we all know, turkeys are are goofy critters when it comes to a fence of any kind, a single strand barbed wire or you know, a breath of hot air that you is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

But it is a barbed wire fence and they just run up and down like but then if they're not pressured, it seems like they just go right over it.

SPEAKER_04 41:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

Yeah. We we've got some data on turkeys that that encountered high fences, and it's pretty interesting. They there are certain birds, if they're if they're alone, they they don't necessarily want to jump over a you know an eight or a ten-foot fence, but they can readily do it. And there are some individuals that cross fences like that every day, literally every day. We we've seen data from birds we've monitored in Texas on some of these larger ranches. Some of these birds cross groups of birds cross the fence every single day as part of their range. So they're hopping on one property and spending part of the day and then hopping on another property. And um I know that we've got it kind of off track there, but I don't really have a size as far as a minimum. I'll just tell you then in my experience, once you get uh up around a thousand acres, you've you've got something to work with. Um you know, and I get questions a lot from people about, you know, do you worry about inbreeding and lack of genetic diversity and and and these types of things? And I mean, I guess at at some point many, many generations from now, perhaps. But the other thing that I've seen which is quite common with fence properties, whether you like it or not, is there's ingress and egress. Um I'm I'm familiar with a property here locally near my home who because of the topography at one at one spot along the fence line, it's very common for deer to jump into the fence on on this property because they can do that. And I I actually have a client uh in over in your neck of the woods who routinely gets deer that are coming in through a culvert that he can't um because it's so much water is flowing through this culvert, he he doesn't block it. He routinely gets gets animals that that come in and out through there. So it it's not really that you know he unfortunately he loses some deer sometimes that go out that he doesn't want, but he also gets some animals that come in, um which is pretty common.

SPEAKER_06 43:37

You know, I I I just touch on it. What we don't we I don't know that in the all the podcast we've done, we've ever ever really talked about a high fence. There's a lot of shade thrown on them. Oh gosh. But but there's a we've had a couple of biologists in here that I won't say their names, Mike, but they have I I remember two of them that said if they could wave a magic wand and they got and they had their own property, they would love to high fence it. Just because of how much the ease of managing Well it gives you a controlled environment, a more controlled environment.

SPEAKER_05 44:05

Yeah. I I wouldn't doubt if more of that happens just uh with folks trying to keep pigs out.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah, and other stuff. So the the thing that it's it is such a delicate subject for so many. And you're right, it's just a way of life, it is what it is. But there's just two different levels. There's like the sensitivity about the word high fence, but then there's a whole different level that goes to the deer farming part. That's a different thing. Totally different question. So, you know, we're not here to be the arbiter of ethics on this stuff. We that's a very delicate subject. I mean, there could be, I mean, some cases, especially the turkey dock, he might be the arbiter of that, but it goes back to what I was just getting to is like we need to be governed by what's healthiest for deer. And, you know, there is a pretty good case for having some places that are pure, never deer farmed or whatever, pure wild deer, bigger areas like he's talking about. If CWD descends around all of us in a dark way in the future, that may be the saving grace we have is some places like that. So, I mean, there's a place for all of it. Again, it just has to be to me, is like what is healthiest, and if something's not and it is an unhealthy practice, I think you should be taking a look at whatever it is, honestly. There, you know, that's that's my thoughts on it. But it is a very, I mean, even from talking to my we'll get probably some comments about it. But again, we're not here to be the judge of it. But it is it is there, it is big, it is widespread, it's especially so in Texas. It's been so contentious.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

I mean, it is and and I understand it. You know, like in my in my world, people in my world, um you know, there there are many that are stalwarts of the North American model of wildlife conservation and the notion that that we we collectively as the public own you know wildlife are all of ours to enjoy. And you know, who are you to fence uh, you know, mm game or or any other any other species and to keep it on you know on this acreage. And I understand that logic. And I'm not I'm you know, I'm not going to certainly dismiss it. Um I've embraced that my entire life, but I'm also a realist and and I understand why people do fence properties, and I understand, you know, from from working with people, their desire to have control over their property, their desire to Dudley's point to to try to keep out invasive species, uh the desire to to help mitigate a neighbor that's problematic and and is unwilling to work collaboratively, you know, to manage wildlife in that area. And I understand all of that. And and I understand that people get upset about, well, you're, you know, well that's just inside of a fence. And I I although I understand that sentiment, I would c I would, I would just ask you if if that's the first thing that comes out of your mouth to step back and and and and be willing to ask the next question, well, can you explain the management of this property? Can you tell me anything about the management of this property? And you know, yeah, I don't I don't disagree at all. If there's a you know you have small fence properties where it's put and take and and animals are put in there and taken out. I I personally have a philosophical problem with that, but I'm not going to argue with you if that's what you do. As long as it's legal in your in your state, then you that I who am I? But when you start talking these larger tracts of land that are fenced you have to understand that at some point there it this becomes a much more nuanced question. It's not as simple as I'm for it or against it and if I'm against it, you know, hell with it. I'm always against it. It like I was you know I've have said I I've I've been all over the place and I've seen examples of of really exemplary management within enclosures. And and again in some parts of the world that's the reality you're going you're going to enter into. For instance if you go hunt in South Africa you are going to hunt inside of a fence property. That is the reality of it. So just know that there's a there's a whole world out there and in that world there's a diverse you know array of of management strategies that in some cases does include the use of fences.

SPEAKER_05 52:30

I bet some of those fence properties have also been some of the worst habitat you've ever seen.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

It's kind of like we talked about with decoys and reaping and fanning and all these things if people want to get all mad at me there's another topic you can get you know that's polarizing and but it's also nuanced. You know it's a you start talking about these these things that are so contentious and but yet are are also very common in in our world and potentially much more common that than we we may think uh it becomes a a polarizing topic.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

I mean yes I mean could go on and on and he's got more wisdom about that than all of us together but again I would just go back to all of that is like the start with what is health is for our beloved white tails. And if something you just described one because it wasn't white tails if it's not it should be taken a look at I don't care what it is. And if it is you got just not be so judgmental. But at the same time I feel like there's stuff I don't know I just feel like there's a lot of stuff that may be going on this night in the name of shooting things is not healthiest for white tails.

SPEAKER_05 53:43

But I don't know I think we've kind of gone that direction with waterfowl recently.

SPEAKER_06 53:47

Yeah absolutely talking about Texas I I see or I hear talk uh that that they feed uh cotton seed uh down there in these in these big uh like I don't know it looks like a it looks like a like one of our wire cages that we put in food plots to keep deer from I never that's exactly what it looks like it looks like it's just like chicken wire excluders.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

Yeah so what are they doing how come I mean that's the only place I see that done I and cotton's grown all over the South what why is it just successful there I'm going to be honest with you I've I've seen that I've asked about it and I've been given answers and a listener Bronson may come on and be able to correct me and put me in my place but I've never been given a an entirely satisfactory answer for why that is I I do know I know why they feed cottonseed. I mean that cottonseed is high in protein um it's readily digestible so it makes sense and compared to a pelleted feed it is quite a bit cheaper right so it it does make sense um but I have a client that actually tried it in Louisiana and it did it was a dismal failure in that particular case and I I think I don't know and I I would defer to Bronson or somebody that's more knowledgeable about deer you know ruminant ecology and that type of thing I think the moisture and humidity was problematic in that case versus say you know South Texas where the air is so dry at times and we this this person had issues with the the deer basically just not wanting to touch the the cotton seed at all. But you know I mean there are pelleted feeds that have cotton seed as a as a part of their base. So I mean it it makes sense that they some of these ranches feed it in Texas.

SPEAKER_04 55:50

We've looked at some of it before as inclusion and that that's what we ran into in the South is this high probability to mold because of the moisture content.

SPEAKER_05 55:58

Yeah and there was a some kind of affliction they would get wasn't it called yeah yeah yeah from eating too much cotton seed or cottonseed meal.

SPEAKER_04 56:08

Yep that's right. But it it apparently works in some places but just not as broadly as you would think I'd rather make compost out of it.

SPEAKER_06 56:16

There you go. It's just interesting to see those see those posts and you just wonder what in the world about that's there.

SPEAKER_02 56:23

I know. I know people done it successfully but that the there are just a lot of deer hunters who love to come up with a gimmick. You know they just they you know some magic potion thing there's really not much out there too but um they do. I mean it may be no telling what I've heard of so many different things I couldn't even write them all down.

SPEAKER_06 56:45

So Mike when you look across the the the the landscape of the whitetail are are are we doing things right in places or we do other things you think we need to be doing better. We for the most part we all think Mississippi's saying it and we all feel it that we need to be shooting more does is that is that a common theme across the Whitetails range in in a lot of places now pretty much everywhere I visit um I will I'll say this and I I actually posted about this a l a little bit the other day when I you know I feel like if you post a picture of a big deer you're you know you're you're blowing your chest out you know blow you know bragging that type of thing so part of me almost hates to post a a picture of a big deer but then I I feel like you know man I I've just got to do this.

SPEAKER_03 57:33

So I I posted a picture the other day and I recounted part of my childhood which you know when I was a kid nobody managed land for deer to my knowledge. I I don't recall any instances when I was a a teenager of encountering a property where the gamekeeper's mentality was in place. I saw examples where they would not cut hardwood timber they would they would use a custodial type management but I don't personally remember ever encountering a property where someone was specifically managing for whitetail deer and now it's hard to find a property as you travel about in many areas that's not managed at least partially to some degree for for whitetails and and and for in you know like we've been talking about and then you go to some places like Texas where it's it's extreme. Like it's hard to to go anywhere where whitetails are not an important cog in the wheel if not the primary driver of land management decisions. And I think it just speaks to the the passion that deer hunters have and the the willingness for people to put their own resources into the land uh which didn't exist when I was a young person. And I I think that to me is is is quite I guess um I don't really know what the right word is it it causes me um to be optimistic because you've got you've got an animal like a whitetail that's very plastic as you know you you can you know deer can tolerate a wide diversity of of landscape conditions and they can thrive in a lot of different soil types and vegetative communities but when you have a property that's well managed and deer are thriving and they're thriving within the carrying capacity of the land there's often a lot of other species that benefit from from the management strategies you're choosing. Back to your question about doughs yeah yeah I I'll give you an example and one of my clients just recently conducted so I I did a this I was admittedly shocked. I personally I was surprised I did a preseason camera survey I think I identified I it was it was like a hundred bucks a hundred and let's say a hundred bucks on this property and and it's a large track obviously and I did not do I did not try to quantify a sex ratio because I knew that we were going to come in with a with a drone operator and we were going to get a little bit better information after the fact. So I I held off on that and and as you know sometimes when you've got a lot of bucks in a herd you can get kind of biased dough numbers from your camera survey because bucks will show up and they'll just hang around at your camera locations and um but anyway so I'm thinking we've got based on observations from stands maybe one and a half dose per buck. And as it turns out you know from the drone survey it's it's it's right at three to one. And so when you start factoring in all of the numbers and you're look you know this herd is is 35 40% higher than I thought it was and this particular landowner has created enormous forage plots at my request uh because the deer density in this part of the world is is quite high naturally it's very very rich bottomland soils and there are a lot of deer regardless of where you go but when you start managing the land the density can can really skyrocket in this area and so I requested this client create some very large think 20 acre you know forage plots um and he he kind of bucked on me a little bit no pun intended he was like man that's a that's a lot of forage plots and I'm like trust me and they're already you know we're we're in January now and and the deer density is high enough that even these really large plots the foraging pressure has gotten you know these plots down to where by the time spring green up comes these plots are going to need a break uh and it just speaks to you know you you you start really realizing and getting a thumb on how many animals are in some of these herds and it's it's pretty astonishing he was making the sign Landy of like two inches wouldn't you say these for those listening so yep and that's a large plot goodness. I mean he sent me a picture the other day it's a it's a 20 acre plot and it's I'd say looking at the grass inside the excluder you know it's as you'd expect it's 12 inches tall you know um and outside it's two inches.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:53

So would you would you say you're the one of the primary determining factors when you're looking at a evaluating a property for is dear heard is is deer density is that one of the primary things you're looking at yeah I I tend to start with when I first visit a property the first thing I'm looking at is native plants.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:11

I'm looking at I'm looking at your browsing pressure on your high preference species in that area whatever they may be so wherever I'm going if I'm not already well familiar with that region of the world and the plants that are growing there I'm going to familiarize myself with what you know maybe the top five brow species that are there and places that I visit frequently and I've worked for years I I know what those species are and that's the first thing I'm looking for is I'm as I'm driving around with a landowner I'm staring out the window of the truck or the bike or whatever we're on and I'm looking at stems I'm looking at clip stem clip stem clip stem or you know or not and what I typically with few exceptions will see and if you talk to any people that have asked me to come to their property for a day I will almost inevitably tell them you've got a lot of deer uh and they're like okay well why do you say that and it's like well pick up you know that's that's whatever plant and that's a moderately preferred deer browse and there's trumpet creeper and dewberry and those are both high preference plants in this part of the world and I've counted a hundred stems of that while we've been driving around and 96 of them were browsed and I've counted 50 stems of this moderate preferred species and 36 of them have been browsed and and I sometimes people ask me what I'm doing you know I've got a little pad and I'm just making check marks as we're driving around I'm doing a browse survey as we're moving about that's the first thing I'm looking at to see if how heavy the pressure is on native browse species because if it's super high I can tell you what your forage plots look like already. I don't even have to look at those. Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:04

This drone survey are you guys utilizing thermal technology and actually counting deer and you can see the difference in bucks and does and actually getting a count like that. That's some high tech technology.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

Yeah yeah yeah it is that and that you know that's something that a few years ago really if you think about it really didn't exist and now it's I mean use of drones is has skyrocketed in popularity for for good and bad I guess.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:30

It seems so much easier than putting cameras and and feed out everywhere when you could just fly over and count the animals.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:38

So somebody like like Toxie could could fly a drone and he would know okay I I've got 85 wild pigs on this plant and know exactly how many he's got to deal with potentially yeah potentially yeah and in fact the survey we just did recently we we the person that did it provided us with a number this is the number of pigs that I observed right during you know during the the drone flights um it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

Yeah um who was it telling me somebody had one and said you can't tell like you can't tell about the horns because they don't have a different heat signature you can't really always tell how big they are maybe but I don't know if you looked at it I mean only there was a guy helped us look for recovered a deer one time and then they showed I I went out there and he sent the video and said we think this is the buck he didn't get hit or anything because he was off in the woods later that night fighting with another deer. But if I remember right you couldn't see the horns you could just see the two deer their head up there.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:43

Can you see you you see the heat signature but this this most recent I didn't do the I didn't do the drone flight. So this most recent one that this client had done um the report that was provided was broken down by sex. So implying to me that the drone operator was was had the ability to to determine the sex of the animal could could you see turkeys in trees at night you can yeah you can see their head it's really cool it looks like a snow cone uh it's this kind of a dark black object with a snow cone you know from the heat on their head I guess I'll the only other thing that looks like is a vulture vultures look the same way um so you kind of have to be you know you kind of have to be careful and no not think you're at a vulture roost but um but yeah we and we've actually used drones to count turkeys on roost in Texas uh for some research we've we've got that's ongoing known roost locations you know places that historically birds show up every night you can fly over those roosts with with drones and get a pretty solid count of of what you're looking at.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:54

Well that's an example of technology helping these biologists out because a lot of good they could do with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:59

Yeah but but but um I'm sensing this technology gets in the wrong hands in the future we need to be really careful and need to be some more regulations about this because I'd fear especially I mean I was talking the other day with somebody had one. I said well couldn't someone be looking at our properties and seeing where maybe finding a big buck and said well it's not as easy as that with the thermal technology but I said well couldn't someone be flying and say well there's a bunch of turkeys raced right there in the black dark and then go in and you know poach them or whatever. He said no they that's that's a real possibility getting it in the wrong hand so I don't know what we're gonna do about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:38

That's something we need to be that so such a testament to our world isn't it crazy I mean everything we talk about that we we think we could use this in a positive light to impact the resource in some way maybe whether we're talking about doing a better job of counting or maybe we're uh we can now get a really solid idea of how many turkeys are on these roosts and we could go back every year and count them and and get a really good pulse for a say a particular landowner or or state property or whatever it is about how many birds you have and what the trends in their abundance are yada yada. And then the next conversation we're we're having is well look at the potential downside here you know somebody's going to use this in a nefarious way because that's just the way we are as a society and um it's like artificial intelligence. I mean right now I have people that are using AI in a way that's saving us so much time extracting gobbling data, looking at turkeys in pictures you name it. And then we we all know AI technology and the potential downsides of it and it's just uh it's it's wild the world we live in these days.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:00

You know, 30 years ago we probably would have freaked out about you know cell camera technology.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:06

So you know I I don't know in in 10 or 15 years we we may just be accustomed to these things flying over all the time but yeah I think there's some old laws about even goes back to walkie talkies and C V radios and assist technology assisting in hunting. So I know there's been some discussions about you know how they'll rewrite or change the regulations for the emerging technology that we have. I mean even you know for me I spend more time on Onex than you know a lot of different things but that's some technology that really helps us. Yeah I'm looking at Onex and Spartan a good yeah I mean you really do just change in the landscape that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:45

Do you remember back when we were kids that like I can remember being dropped off at at a hunting at our hunting club and my dad would drop me off and say okay you know son you're going to stand let's say five or whatever and we'd walk in maybe he was going to six and he would walk to six and if he walked by five you know we would say our goodbyes and our good lucks and I'd climb up in the the the old wooden lat you know stand that was five and I'd see him disappear over the hill to six and that was it we didn't we couldn't communicate with each other until 11 o'clock when you were allowed to get off the stand and I would see him you know and I'm I'm 13 years old or whatever it was and I'm looking at my watch and I'm hungry as I can be and I'm like I can't wait to see that orange hat coming over the hills because I know we can go get a chili dog and and we can talk and I want to tell him about the doe I saw and you know the raccoon that I saw or whatever. And now you know I mean it's instant we just text and I miss those days. I'm I miss going on a hunt and not being able to communicate in any way.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:55

And you also didn't know what deer were you know what but you'd hear a shot on that place.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:01

Oh and you're like ooh ooh he got him that was number seven it shot and who was on number I don't remember who was on number seven this morning and you man you couldn't wait until somebody came over the hill or you could get back to the clubhouse and figure out you know if they they had shot and if they had killed and boy now it's it's instant.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:21

Yeah it is it it there's there's a lot of good that's come out of it and and and and I that like you I kind of long for those old days sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:30

Oh no doubt the Wonderment, you know, because you wondered. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:36

So I mean it it's always easy to talk about how cool it was back in the day, but uh you know, we're we're still here. We've got this present time, and uh we're taking our kids, and you know, it may not be the same for us, but it's all they know. Uh they may say the same thing when they get older.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:56

They will.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:56

I I've struggled with it. I remember when we used to sit in shooting houses over a feeder, and man, that was the good old days.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:04

It is funny how it's changing. And you and you gotta adapt. I mean, you gotta go with it. I've struggled, you know, with Hayden like, you know, having a device instead of sitting there and watching wildlife. But then I started watching it with him and I'm like, hey, you know, this is pretty fun. We can watch a football game and deer hunt at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:19

I I still don't understand how a kid can be on a road trip for two hours and not look out the window at all the cool stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:26

I started asking mine, do you know where you are? And they say, huh? No. Yeah, no, can you get back home? Oh we associate associate you so much, you know, with the wild turkey research and everything you've done. And we are so steeped in the wild, the the restoration story of wild turkeys. And I was just sitting here thinking, I heard you mention, you know, the restoration efforts of whitales, and I don't know if we've ever told that story, if I've even heard the story. I mean, like you, I I grew up, I don't remember not deer hunting and not having deer to hunt, yet I can remember my dad talking about, you know, they weren't around, son, and if you found a track, you stayed on it until you you found him. So um was is was there any parallels to how turkey restoration versus deer restoration and when did all that occur?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:16

Yeah, I mean, as far as the the timing, I'm not I'm not up to speed like I am with turkeys as far as as how that went with whitetails. To your point, I I can remember my dad telling me as a child, he grew up uh in southern Virginia, and I remember him telling me this would have been in the the late 1970s, that when he was a kid in the 1950s, if you saw a deer track, they would actually have someone from the local paper come out and take a photograph of it and describe it. And and and then I can remember in the the 19 early 1980s when I started you know on his coattails just trying to spend time with my dad. And since he was hunting, that's what I ended up you know doing to be with him. And um I can remember, you know, days where we never saw a deer, you know, day after day after day. And and and I grew up in a club where we hunted with dogs, um and which was very popular in in Virginia at that time and still is in in some places, and and and the dogs would never even strike, right? I mean you you the dogs would be released and I'd be sitting there as you know as a kid freezing my tail off and and you were hoping for a bark, you know, to to get you excited that a deer could possibly be on its way and you know never even hear a chase. Um that's I can remember seasons where if I killed a doe, I was I was ecstatic. Like just literally a static. And and and now, you know, I I think I look forward to where we are now. Literally, we've been talking about issues with overabundance and over browsing pressure and these things and how far the deer world has come in a relatively short period of time. I'm I'm 53 years old and I'm start I started my deer hunting experiences when I think I was eleven or twelve, let's just say twelve. And so, you know, in 40 years to to go from if I see a deer, I am tickled to death. If I kill a deer, it's it's it do you remember this? Do you remember taking a picture with a Polaroid and shaking it to get the image? I would take that Polaroid to school on Monday and show my friends if I shot a doe, if I shot a button buck, if I shot anything. Yeah, if a brown deer, I'd shake it, you know, take that Polaroid from class to class to class. And every time you're in, you know, you're in recess or you're in intermission between classes, man, you're showing buddies as they're walking by. Look at this doe I kill. Look at this doe I kill. And that was 40 years ago, and now look at where we are in the white tail world. It's pretty remarkable.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:08

It is remarkable. That Polaroid would end up at the bait shop, you know, cool. I love those bait shop boards. You know, every kid's first deer was on in the local newspaper.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:21

I remember one time this was one of my biggest Trump cards ever. And it's one of the few times I could ever pull it. A buddy of mine had his Polaroid and he showed me at first period. I think that I was a I think I was a sophomore in high school. He showed me, he comes right up to me. He goes, he goes, uh, Mike, look at look at what I got. And it was like a little, it was like a little three point or something. And I was like, dude, that's awesome. And I I had it ready in my jacket pockets. I had it ready. I had that polar ready. I said, look at what I got. It was a six-point. I got a little bitty basket, six point. He goes, Oh, you got me, you got me. That's a beautiful deer. You know, that's you know, and it was literally something that you could, you know. This Yeti tumbler is the size of that that deer's rack, and I was tickled to death with that. Yeah, that's what it's about, though. Yeah. That is what it's about.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:18

It's just interesting because we talk about, you know, the huge success story with turkey's restoration. And uh whitetailed deer the same way. It really is.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:25

Oh, when I was a kid, if somebody killed a deer around here, rode it around. Yeah, I've like I can't care how many times I've seen those old short broncos with a spike or a three-point across the hood riding around town with it up there for show it to everybody.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:38

I think my dad killed uh a deer in Lee County in 1960. And it had and it was an eight-point deer, and it was, I mean, the talk of the town.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:48

Oh, we we were just talking this weekend because my great uncle had some land out in Clay County back in the day when I was a kid, so I was in the 60s. And I remember him saying they had these, they were called the Rock and Chair Fox hunters, and there was a group of gentlemen that they had these like you know, they're kind of like coon dogs, but they're fox dogs. They would run foxes. There are lots of foxes back then. They would just sit there and listen to them at night running. But he he said they saw a deer track. And so uh they all went and saw this, and it was evidently a big deer track, too. And so when he got back to town, again, this has been in probably the 50s, they had people driving out from West Point 10 miles away to come look at the deer track. That's how few deer we had. Nobody believed he saw a deer track. So yeah, things have changed. It's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:36

Taxi, I bet during your you you stepped out just for a minute, but Mike was talking about he asked you we remember Polaroids.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

Oh, yeah, I heard I came back, you were talking about.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:44

I bet you took some school and said, look at this.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:47

Yeah. So I mean there was a I still got the Polaroid of my first year.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:51

I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:52

I think I do too. I've got some, we've got some in a some they would always take a Polaroid of turkeys where I grew up turkey hunting, too. So there's a bunch of those sitting around in a book.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:01

And the Polaroids always had that nice little white space underneath them. You could write down eight point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:07

Shot him running bullet count. So one of my favorite Polaroids is a picture, and I was hunting with a friend, uh guy Bobby knows over near Auburn. I won't say his name, but the guest with me and Cuzz hunting was Bo Jackson. And they got a picture of me and Cuz and Bo Jackson in between us, and he signed it Bo Knows Camo 2. I'm jealous of that. I would love to have him be a guest. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:30

He'd be a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:31

Oh my gosh. You talk about the goat and different things. He's definitely the goat as far as athletes.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:37

Mike, uh looking at you, I know we're trying to be good stewards of your time, but uh look, you're a scientist, you're passionate about hunting and deer hunting. Could you take just a moment and tell us what do we need to know or what is your opinion on the latest in CWT?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:57

Well, it's sobering.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:58

Um dark dark topic.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:01

Yeah, yeah. I I don't I don't have a whole lot of positive to say. Uh there are there are some potential silver linings in some cases. Um, I mean, obviously we know you know CWD is a is a hundred percent fatal once deer contract it. Um it's easily spread, it's easily transmitted in in the environment, it's persistent in the environment. There's growing evidence that it is can be transmitted in utero. Um there's you know, we're I have a number of ongoing projects right now tracking deer in CWD positive herds, wild herds. Um deer with the disease are dispersing quite a ways. Therefore, this this misshapen protein is preon is capable of being shed across broad distances fairly easily. There's growing evidence in a number of herds, particularly the one I can I know intimately because I've been studying this herd for five years, is in northwest Arkansas the the population in the higher prevalence areas of northwest Arkansas is has plummeted dramatically. Uh it's having uh significant effects on on deer abundance. And obviously, because of that, it's having effects on deer harvest. Harvest has declined, and and um opportunity is declining, and interest in hunting is declining in some of these areas where CWD is is highly prevalent, and that's a real problem. Um on a positive note, there is continued evidence that's being published showing that there are some herds that genetically appear to be to be predisposed to not contracting CWD, which is a real positive, which tells me that perhaps you know we're we're going to have herds that are resistant to it and and therefore perhaps in in many cases the disease just kind of runs its course, right? Um but as you and I, as we all know, you know, as human beings, hearing the word run its course is gut-wrenching. Um if you own a property that that is in a CWD endemic area, then you you're living in a different reality than than many of us are. Um I don't really have anything other than that too positive to say, Bobby. It's a it's a I I have I have clients that own properties in CWD endemic areas, and it is it's a real challenge, it's concerning. Um it it causes angst, and I get it. And I you know, in some cases, I the science is showing clearly that the population decline is inevitable in some in some of these herds. And then in other herds, like you may be familiar, I mean, some of the like for instance the detection in East Aquina County, that you know, there hasn't been another detection since. Um same thing in Pontiac County. Yeah, yeah. So these these one-off kind of detections versus these these populations where prevalence is very, very high, just speaks to the complexity of dealing with the disease. And it and what really concerns me as well is that you know there's so much we don't know about CWD, and it causes game agency, you know, state wildlife agencies who have limited budgets, it really throws a monkey wrench into their ability to to manage other species because it pulls resources, right? I mean it it takes resources from from other things and it it puts people in contentious and difficult situations that that that shouldn't be in that position and don't want to be in that position, and it causes a lot of angst amongst us as hunters and we'll we'll see. Um we'll see.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:15

Are you uh if you have a client that's in a maybe not in a CWD zone but close to one, are you recommending that they test their harvest?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:23

Well, and in in some of the you know, in in these areas, yeah, though I mean they're you know, the state agencies are asking hunters to donate to donate heads as part of their monitoring and surveillance efforts. So yes, absolutely. I mean, you you know what the agencies are trying to do, they're I mean, obviously they're they're trying to get a pulse for what they're dealing with. And are they dealing with some areas, say like in northwest Arkansas, where the prevalence is literally 40 plus percent? Or are they dealing with a situation like we've just talked about in some of these other herds where prevalence is very, very low? You know, that knowing that helps them understand the future and what they're dealing with from a resource need perspective. And so, yes, absolutely, you know, contributing heads to that and and helping the state agency try to do their job is certainly it's such a tough situation.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:17

Yeah, I mean well, yeah, yeah. We're trying to pay attention. Well, we you know uh Mike, we have a lot of respect for your thoughts, and uh just wanted to hear what you had to say on that. So, Richie, I'm gonna look at you. Let's kind of lighten this up. We've got a trivia question for Mike. I know he was prepared for this. I'm certain he knew this was coming.

SPEAKER_08 1:26:37

Um All right, here. So our um winner, today's podcast winner is Turkey Dog Man. I like it.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:45

Turkey Dog Man. I like it.

SPEAKER_08 1:26:46

Turkey Dog Man left a review. Uh look forward to each episode. Especially love the turkey dog episode. I'm friends with Marlon, great guy. Y'all keep up the great work. Richie's doing a good job. I think Bobby might have put that in. No way that was in the review.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:08

No way. Bobby, man. Lay off Richie. Richie is doing a great job. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_08 1:27:15

Oh my can you? So here's the uh question. Well, what did he mean? Oh, yeah, yeah. So uh whose closet is this coming out of? This is uh Prize is a coveted gamekeeper podcast t-shirt and license plate. Ooh, swag bag.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:29

You know, the sometimes, you know, there's a bunch of old rickety trucks around West Point. Sometimes I'll see one come down the road and it'll have a gamekeeper tag on it, and I'll say, there's a toxic. That's how I can recognize him as I see that gamekeeper tag on the front of his truck. So all right, so uh turkey dog one uh one a set.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:46

All right, turkey dog man. Here we go. I alright, Doc. Here's the question as uh Bobby's trying to trip me up again. Some people also refer to a flock of turkeys as blank. A a grove with a G. B. A trove with a T or C a grove with a D. That's a good one. That is a good one.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:13

Boy, that is a good one. Look at look at my I've seen it referenced as a drove with a D. Yeah, we can do it. Ranging the bell again.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:21

He he's a hundred percent. Yeah, Richie, read what you got there, buddy.

SPEAKER_08 1:28:25

All right, so a group of turkeys is typically called a flock, but when referring to a large group of turkeys, you might also use the term drove.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:33

Yeah, there were there were some earlier writings of some of the some of the stalwarts in the turkey world back many decades a growth would use drove in their writings to represent, like Richie said, these really large groups of birds.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:50

A wad actually heard that all my life.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:52

Yeah, too. I've heard drove in my whole life.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:55

Well, okay. I always said wad.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:58

Like there is a lot there was a lot of birds in that shit. Yeah, there's some colorful language beyond wad. You keep oh yeah, oh yeah. Don't go there.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, Mike, it's good to see you.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:10

You look you look good. No doubt about it. It's good to see y'all. It's good to see y'all. I feel good, man. It's uh um the weather's pretty and uh we got through the holidays and survived that, which is always a tough deal. And yeah, I know it is. Now it's time to go get um, I'm actually gonna uh I this isn't gonna air until I'm I'm back home, but I'm about to sneak out tomorrow for a few days and enjoy this this super cold weather that's coming. There you go. See if I can get one more, one more on the ground before I call it quits. One more on the ground. Yeah, yeah. I got faith in you.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:43

We still got it, what, three weeks?

SPEAKER_02 1:29:44

Well, this is like my just about my honestly, this is about my favorite month. Starting with Christmas till because we got rut to hunt till the end of January. I like hunting. I like hunting. And then we got meat week the first week of February.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:56

Meat week. Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:57

We've been meet weeking it every week around here. So Mike, we'll see you at the NWTF will probably be the next time we'll see you.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:04

Yep. I will be there for the I'll be there for the full show as as y'all will be. I will uh I'll come by the booth and catch up while y'all are doing setup.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:13

It's sounds great. You know, the it's open to the public. I really highly recommend anybody that loves just outdoor people, hunting and fishing people shows. I think it's the best. It's the best energy of any like open to the public hunting show there is. It really is a special deal.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:34

Yeah, and your whole family will enjoy it too. And your wife can enjoy it, it is great.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:38

I want to say 15 or 16 consecutive years of growth. It's a great thing. That tells you anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:43

So if you ever like to hear lots of turkey calling, that is your place. Goose calls. Yeah. Go by the Woodhaven booth and listen to all the squawking going on there.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:53

If you don't like it, you bring your earplugs because that's all there is that's the truth.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:57

But I mean, outside of the show, there's so much cool stuff to do in Nashville. That's right. You really can bring your whole family. You don't have to be a turkey nerd. It's there's a lot to do. That's right.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:07

Yeah. Well, we hope everybody can. You know, my wife went one time about 20 years ago, and after walking around and hearing all that squawking, she said, now I know everybody wants to kill a turkey.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:19

It's pretty good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:20

Now now my wife went once and she said she'd never go back. She was like, and and here's why. She's like, it's weird walking around with you because you want to talk to people and people want to stop you and say hello and take a picture and do this, and it's just weird. I it's just weird. I I I don't like that. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:40

Nobody wants to talk to her because they don't know, other than she's your wife. So we get that some. I think mine actually enjoys not being any kind of center of attention, so she doesn't mind that part.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:51

Well, Mike, you're just redneck famous. Yes. You're an old you and old topsy over here.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:55

You're a celebrity walking around the place. So just trying to make a difference. I'm just trying to encourage if people want to travel to see something. I think that'd be my first one to go to. Well, those are a couple of good ones. A lot of fun.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:07

All right, guys. Well, Mike, we enjoyed seeing you. Please tell your wife we said hello.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:11

We'll do.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:12

We'll do. It's good talking to you guys as always. Yeah, well. Thanks for being on. I want to get some more of your time. We want to get started with a turkey podcast here pretty soon. We want to learn what all the what your foundation is doing. And we'll we'll do one about all that here coming up here in the next one. Yeah. Good luck in the home stretch. I'll look and find another good-looking afternoon. Yep. Yeah. And try to schedule on time. I'll skip it too. Another bluebird afternoon. Thanks, Bobby. I'm sorry, Mike. You were trying to stop. Yeah, what the birds would be goblin? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:42

Price is wrong, Bobby. All right, guys.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:45

We enjoyed it, Mike. Uh, looking around the room, don't y'all don't run toxies. I'm gone a lot of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:50

I'm in a three-point stance.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:52

Um, can we give some trees away in a couple soon? Yeah. For a trivia.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:57

Whatever you want to do. Let's do that. So why don't you say goodbye, Dudley?

SPEAKER_05 1:33:00

Goodbye, Dudley.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:01

Get us out of here, Richie. What's up, man? My name is Jared. You for TJ.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:07

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Game Keeper Podcast. And be sure to tune in again. Subscribe to Game Keeper Farming for Wildlife magazine, and don't miss the Mafio Properties Fistful of Dirt podcast with my good buddy, Ronnie Guster.