EP: 450 | Guns & Ammo with David Faubion

On this episode, we are joined by David Faubion, editor of Guns & Ammo Special Interest Publications, to discuss calibers, trending rifles, and bullet preferences. Dave has lots of real-world experience and shares with us what he has learned over the years. He kicks off the podcast with a great story about calling in a big alpha male wolf in the Idaho wilderness this spring. It's a fun and informative episode.

Listen, Learn, and Enjoy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I am Jeff Foxworthy and welcome to Gamekeeper Podcast. If you want to learn more about farming for wildlife and habitat management, then buddy, you are in the right place. Join the Gamekeeper crew direct from Multioak Land Enhancement Studio as they discuss the latest wildlife and habitat management practices, news, and of course honey. There's no telling what you'll learn, but I'm going to tell you, I bet it's interesting. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_07 0:25

We're live in 3, 2, 1.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

All right, guys, we're going to be talking about such an interesting and controversial at times. Uh and that might not seem to be the right word, but when you talk about calibers and what people prefer, it you get so many opinions. Carcy, you've got multiple opinions on all this. And and I should start off and say, welcome, Carcy Young, one of the third employee of Mossy Oak ever. Going back in time. And there you are joining us. Glad to be here. You are a rifle aficionado. And somewhat. Yeah. So you're going to add a lot to this conversation. Well, maybe I can add a little anyway. But Dudley, you have to agree. When we talk about calibers, it's with anybody. It's just across the board as to what people.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

It is. And uh, you know, our our guest, David, can probably um agree on that. You know, it's funny, you can talk about stuff that I mean, and it is interesting, but if somebody says like 308 verse 270 versus 306, you're gonna get like 800 testosterone fueled answers. Yeah. And they all think they're right. Yeah. Uh it's, you know, whenever you're looking for something to get engagement, you can always post something about rifle caliber, it seems like.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Our guest is out in Sheridan, Wyoming. He is the editor of Guns and Ammo magazine. We've got Mr. David Fabian.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Editor for Guns and Ammo's special interest publication division, just for the record.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Okay. Well, I don't know what all that means. But special interest publications. But uh, but guns and ammo. I've been I've been reading that and seeing that. I mean, Carcy, it's been on your desk as long as I can remember.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah. Probably I've probably been reading it for uh 50 years. Has it been around that long, David?

SPEAKER_01 2:19

I think I think in the late 50s is when Guns and Ammo started.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

So it's old as old as I am, pretty much. And that's a bit older than 50. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:27

It was always on the table every time you'd go to the dentist or the doctor. And then you barber shop. Or the barbershop or the cool uncle's house, you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Yeah. David, uh well, thank you for being here. And how what can you're a young guy? What is your journey to being the this editor of special publications of the guns and ammo?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Um I think I think the key or the or the uh easy backstory for me is I just got lucky. I uh I grew up in a hunting family, uh, always wanted to emulate my dad, his brothers, my grandpa. And so I from an early age I decided that I needed to accumulate my own hunting lore. And so my major passion as a as a kid was to was to tag along with my uh with my older family members and and learn the ropes on hunting. I grew up in Western Washington, which uh I mean I didn't know any different at the time, but turns out Western Washington is some of the toughest hunting on earth. You uh you're in a rainforest, there's low animal density, there's no limited entry stuff. It's uh it's a free-for-all. And those that uh those that can be successful consistently uh can pretty much go anywhere and and take on any animal. And I didn't know that at the time, but uh but since then I've I've been fortunate to uh to go all over and and yeah, I I gotta agree with that. It uh it's it's a fantastic place to to learn the ropes for for uh chasing big game.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Well, you said uh uh Washington State, and you don't have to travel real far out of Washington State to hunt a wide variety of animals. I mean, you've got uh black-tailed deer out there. I think there's some whitetail in parts of Washington, obviously elk. There's uh I mean it's uh it's a pretty diverse region out there. Oh yeah. Now they have uh turkeys out there. Yeah, they do. And I think they've got all well, they've got three of the subspecies out there.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

Yeah, pretty sure. Waterfowl, I mean all kinds of stuff. They grow they grow a lot of clover there.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Yeah. Washington and Oregon are two of the most diverse states out there.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Yeah, well, you know, so a lot of the seed that we uh for biologic, it's uh bagged and grown out there in that Willamette Valley. It's a real fertile valley in Oregon. It's uh it's a beautiful place if you've ever been out there.

SPEAKER_04 4:53

It's incredible. Very diverse state going east to west or west to east.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

So uh David, uh what uh what was your path to guns and ammo?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

I got really lucky and I met a guy named Jeff Johnston, who was who is the, I think he was managing editor for the National Rifle Association's American Hunter magazine. And I got to know him, and we'd communicate by email. I would I would share with him my successful hunts. And uh back in 2011, Mike Scobie, who was the editor of Peterson's Hunting Magazine, my favorite childhood publication, yeah, he and Jeff were around a fire in Africa. And Scoby said to Jeff Johnston, I need uh I need an associate editor for the magazine. And Jeff said, I got your guy. So two weeks later, I was I was packing up my stuff and I moved to Peoria, Illinois, and I started my my magazine editing career. So I started with Peterson's Hunting, and a couple years later, I transitioned over to Guns and Ammo special interest publications. And uh, besides a short stint at Six Hour, um I've been there for you know 15 years now.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

How about that? Well, it's a it's an incredible magazine. This the I mean we've had Andrew McKean on, and and we we talk about outdoor life and field and stream all the time, and uh that we all grew up reading those, but guns and ammo is right there with it.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Yeah, and they they cover all the bases, you know, just every kind of firearm you can imagine and and more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

So uh David, when uh we were planning this, you sent me a photo of a recent, really it looked like a the biggest wolf I've ever seen, and you killed it out there near you somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

What can you tell that story for our Yeah, it was uh it was a hunt that was put on by my friend Mac Winzenberg, who works for Zero Tech Optics, and Zero Tech Optics is based in Australia, and in just a few short years, I think they started in 2018 or 19, but in just a few short years, they've taken over the southern hemisphere. So Zero Tech is is a is a upcoming brand in the in the U.S. But uh my buddy Mac, he and I have been on one hunt together, and it was the North Slope of Alaska back in 2020. We went up there during COVID and did uh and did a caribou hunt. So Mac knows I'm twisted when it comes to when it comes to remote backcountry arduous hunts. So he uh he put together a small group of his friends in the industry, and we went to the salmon river country of Idaho. And it was spring bear hunt, but uh, but he insisted that everyone have wolf, a wolf tag in case we you know hit the holy grail. And I think I think I've been to Idaho, you know, for for bear hunts, maybe 10 or 12 times now. And I mean finding a wolf in that state, the best wolf country. It's it's like finding a needle in a haystack. And if you do, if you do hear one, that's that's incredible. And if you see one, that's even that's even rarer. But uh, but to kill one is is something like it it's it's so rare that I don't know many of my colleagues who have been hunting much longer than me and are much better hunters. I don't know many people that have actually killed a wolf. It is it uh it makes it makes the Roosevelt elk and the black tailed deer I grew up chasing in western Washington. It makes them seem like they've got a neon sign and they're around every tree. I mean, wolves are wolves are really rare. So we went on this on this bear hunt and it was uh it was a cool adventure. We uh took a jet boat 13 miles up the salmon river and stayed at this place called the uh the Shep Ranch. And it's an old mining claim that the uh that the people took over, homesteaded in the late 1800s. And uh from there we loaded up on their mules and went in the backcountry. And so we hunted, we hunted bears. And a couple of guys got lucky on black bears, but I kept striking out. I I saw one shooter bear the first night, but after that I only saw a thousand cubs. Um so towards the end of the hunt, after two days of of solid rain forced us back down to the lodge. Uh, I asked, I asked the owners of the lodge, I said, Where should I go now? You know, I got I got two days to to punch a tag on a bear. Like, where do I go? And they pointed directly above camp, like we're talking directly up, and they said, Climb this ridge and go up there. It'll take a few hours to get up there, but uh, but there should be bears up there. And so I loaded up my stuff and I was gonna go and spike out that night and and hopefully find a bear, uh, come back the next day and get ready for get ready for the uh exit downriver. So I uh I loaded up and I started hiking up this up this ridge. And it's it sounds kind of corny, but I gotta I gotta tell you the story because I believe I believe that something something happened and and my luck was uh entirely due to a horseshoe that I found on the trail. I found this old rusty horseshoe. Been there for decades, and I looked down and it was just it was just sticking out of the mud. And I picked it up and I thought I could really use some luck right now. And so I hung it on this post near the trail and I kept going up. So two hours later, I'd climbed about 3,000 vertical feet, and no big deal. My legs were feeling it. You know, this is this is day day six of our hunt, and I've I I can't even tell you how many thousands of vertical feet I've ascended and descended. But I get up top and I can finally see a basin in the distance. And so I throw my binoculars up and and in the salmon river, there is a ton of elk. And not surprisingly, I saw a herd of elk in this meadow that maybe a thousand yards away. So I do my due diligence and I'm looking for a bear. I don't see anything. And I put my binoculars down and keep climbing up, and periodically I'll just look over and glance at this at this little band of elk. And at one point, they did the strangest thing. They erupted. I'm talking erupted like you like you busted a cubby of quail. They just scattered on the hillside. And I thought that's really strange because I'm the only hunter up here. I'm a thousand yards away, they can't smell me. I got the wind right. Like the only thing that made any sense to me was there was a predator there. So again, I uh take my binoculars out and I scan this meadow. And like I said, it's probably a thousand yards. And I'm hoping that I can find a black bear had come out and was feeding next to him and it spooked him. But in the back of my mind, I'm hoping that I found the needle in the haystack. And so I'm I'm glassing with my Zero Tech binoculars, and sure enough, I come across an animal that you know immediately, but it was such a shock that it took me a few seconds to process that I'm staring at a gray wolf, and I've got the high ground. He doesn't know I'm there. He's actively hunting elk, and this is I've got a tag in my pocket. Like this is this is this is fixing to be the opportunity of my lifetime. So, like I said, my my legs were really sore after after you know a full week of hunting this area. But it was it was like I was a teenager again, and I just had a shot of adrenaline. So I I ripped up the remaining slope and I got as close as I could to the head of the basin and I peeked over the edge. And I don't think I could see the wolf at the at the time, but the herd of elk that he spooked, they came right underneath me. And so I thought, okay, this is this is a good sign. And so uh the week before we were there, my buddy Mac had a friend who was in that country, and he used calf elk distress to call in a wolf to you know a couple hundred yards. And so I thought to myself, this is perfect. The the wolf was was chasing elk. He's obviously hungry for them. I've got a predator call in my pocket. I'm gonna try to do my best calf elk distress noise. Now I have no clue what a calf elk in distress sounds like, but I did a I did a high pitch, high pitch uh, you know, elk, elk squeal, and I called for maybe 15 seconds. And sure enough, I uh I catch movement in the distance and I throw my binoculars up, and this black and white wolf is coming in. And it uh it worked out. I was just in the exact right place at the right time, and I happened to use the right call, but that wolf came in and I caught movement below at about 30 yards, and I was shooting through a little screen of brush, and we all know that's that's that's uh something to avoid if you can. But uh, but I I weighed my I weighed my options and I realized this is probably the only time I'm gonna have a wolf within range and have a shot at it. So I I sent one and I was using uh uh an airlock suppressor on a Seacins rifle, chambered in Six of M Creedmoor. And so the the sss of the of the sound went off and immediately followed by a thwap. And that wolf, I just stoned him. I got him. And uh yeah, to say that I was I was uh appreciative, uh in awe, uh thankful, fortunate. Like I I'm 41 years old and I've been I've been very blessed in the hunting world, but that right there was the pinnacle of my hunting career. I uh yeah, I'll never I'll never ever forget it. It was a magical thing.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Oh my goodness. That's a great story. No kidding. I I was expecting you to say you got him to 300 yards and to 30 yards. And uh when you're sitting there squealing and you know he's out there moving, are you looking to your right, paying attention to the right and left? Because there could be other wolves that are might have an interest in you. What was I was it tense, I guess?

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because yes, I uh I always figured if I, you know, for the past for the past 15 years since I've been hunting the wilderness of Idaho, uh, I know there are wolves there. I called one in in 2010. So I know I know it's possible to call it in, but I also know it's extremely unlikely. And I, statistically speaking, I'll probably go the rest of my life and never see a wolf, let alone call one in. But uh, but as I had this wolf coming in, I am thinking to myself, do not mess this up. And so I didn't I didn't allow myself to get nervous. I didn't I didn't allow myself to mentally stage the trophy pick, nothing like that. I was I was so dialed in that uh all I focused on was where the wolf could come and how I could maximize my odds for getting a shot. So you mentioned the 300 yard shot. There was there was a gap uh to the right of where I was where I was sitting where I hoped the wolf would come. And I figured it was between 100 and 200 yards. And my plan was to was to bark or howl at the wolf to stop him and get a shot there. But he didn't he didn't even give me a brief a brief pause in that opening. He shot through the opening. And so at that point I knew he was gonna come in close. I wasn't thinking about any other wolves. Like the only thing that mattered on that earth was me and my rifle and and that wolf. That's it. I I there could have been artillery going off in the distance, and I don't think I would have paid attention to it. But uh, but he came in and I got the shot. And you know, it's it's funny because I saw right where he went, uh I saw him drop and he rolled down the slope, but it took me 20 minutes to find him. That uh that hillside had some gray-colored branches of brush and it had patches of snow, and it blended in just perfectly camouflaged. So it took me 20 minutes to find it. And I pulled out my phone to document the recovery once I finally found it. And in the distance, I hear another howl, or I hear a howl. And so I think to myself, whoa, I'm uh I'm not done yet. And it's it's such a tragic thing because I only had one wolf tag, but my uh my buddies down below, they all had wolf tags. So if they would have been with me, it would have been so cool. But anyways, I I kept calling. I tried to call this other one out, and nothing happened. And so I decided to, you know, throw caution to the wind and just let out a wolf howl. So I did my best, you know, wolf howl. And, you know, seconds later, down where the first wolf was at, I see a black wolf come out of the timber. So now I got two wolves. You know, this is this is twice as cool. And I'm not saying I called that one in, because I don't I don't know if I called him in. He could have been he could have been uh scent trailing the other one because I think the one I shot was the alpha male. He was he was a mature male with worn teeth, and so it was probably his his uh offspring. But uh that wolf too came within 50 yards. Oh my and uh it was cool to see him in the brush. I I wouldn't have had a shot even if I if even if I had a tag, but he came in and then he he went up up the slope, and I think he was going to my uh my downwind. And so I uh I figured he would he would uh he would smell me. So I I closed the distance up top, hoping to see him again. And as I as I entered this this uh brushy timber up top, I heard another howl, and this one was close. So I look, I see this, I see this object maybe 100 yards out, and I throw my binoculars up, and sure enough, there is another beautiful wolf. So this is a third separate wolf. This is a creamish colored one. And so I'm looking at that one, and I think, well, you know, I got nothing to lose here, might as well try to call them in. And luckily, I've done quite a bit of predator hunting, and I know just to do the basic lip squeak to get the animals that are in close without spooking them. So I go, and sure enough, I catch another wolf to my right, and this is uh this is a four separate wolf. And he came in and I stared at him and I was just kicking myself for not getting a second wolf tag. Oh, that was a tough pill to swallow.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

I'll bet.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Oh my goodness. Pocket full of four-leaf clovers for that.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Yeah, yeah. Well, David, at that point, what you know, once you uh once you're finished messing with all the wolves, you do you skin that one out and hike down with the skin? Or you you you probably what does he weigh? He looks like he's 200 pounds.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yeah, he does look big. Um, I don't know. I what I what I told my my buddies when I got back down to the lodge after skinning him out, I said, I don't I don't know what it weighs. They they guessed, you know, you know, anywhere from 100 to 150 pounds. And I'm not sure. I I'd say between 80 and 120 was my initial estimates, but now I just revise it to a simple medium. You know, the average average mature wolf male will weigh 100 pounds. So I just described it as 100 pounds. I know, I know I put them on my shoulders and carried them, carried them up the slope to where my my backpack was up top, and it was maybe 30 yards. Again, my legs were pretty sore, but uh, but carrying that wolf on my shoulders 30 yards upslope was about all I could do. So it was it was tough.

SPEAKER_03 18:59

He looks like he's twice as big as you are in the photograph. He was good sized. I'm gonna say he's more than 100 pounds. He's huge, Carcy.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Very impressive.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

That is a cool story.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

Yeah, I bet you were the hero of the camp when you got back down with him.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Yeah, the uh the group was very excited. It's uh, you know, I I I found out after that how rare it is to to get a wolf. Like you, you just you just most people luck into them. You know, they're deer hunting or elk hunting or bear hunting like I was, and you luck into them and you get a shot. And and I certainly lucked into it. I don't want to, I don't want to say that uh I did anything anything uh uh beyond beyond the norm of of correct to get it. But I happen to be in the right place at the right time, and I had that intel about uh about calling in the the wolf the week before the guy who did it. And so it it just worked out. But yeah, to get to get a wolf is is uh it's it's really the pinnacle of my hunting career. And and like I said, I've I've been I've been very fortunate uh not just not just through work where I've done some amazing hunts, but also, you know, growing up in a hunting family, we'd go up to British Columbia for a moose. My grandpa loved moose hunting, so I got I got I got to go on three moose hunts before the age of 18, you know. So I've I've been I've been I've been very fortunate. But that wolf to to spot him and to call him in and to get a clean kill on him, uh, yeah, it's it's it's it's beyond special. It's something that I I'm I'm sure will I take that memory to the grave.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

I bet. Yeah. And that is some rough terrain up there. Um yeah. I went up there rafting one time, and uh I mean it would get like 120 degrees during the day in the summertime, and then get kind of chilly at night, and it is the most up and down terrain I've I've ever experienced.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

I've always heard Idaho is described as uh if you unfolded it and laid it out flat, it'd be bigger than Texas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Probably feels like that. We've got a friend that drew a moose tag in that area and uh for next fall, and he is fired up.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

So, you know, guys, I mean, there's something to take away from that. He that we all could apply to different hunts, but he was confident he he had, you know, uh he obviously he was familiar with calling predators, but when the opportunity arose, he kind of mentally made a game plan and executed it and uh flawlessly. And uh man, well, my hat's off to you, David. That's that's incredible. Thank you. Yeah, that's how it's supposed to be done. You know, the other interesting thing about David, do y'all remember a couple of months back we did a podcast with Andrew McCain about helicoptering in to uh a property, I think it was in Wyoming, and killing some big elk. And uh it was uh they were having issues crossing over into some public land, and they so they hired a helicopter. I didn't realize it, but David was one of the he may have even been the ring leader of that hunting party. And David, can you speak to that just a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah, yeah. It's uh it's it's an interesting thing. And and I I claim I claim ownership. Of this for one reason, and that is because it turns out that this is a very divisive uh way to hunt. There's a lot of people that are upset about it. Uh it's still a tiny percentage. But uh, but yeah, we have so many millions of acres of landlocked public land that are that are sprinkled throughout the West. And and a lot of the a lot of the surrounding landowners, whether they're ranchers or just or just uh just landowners, uh they they truly believe they own it. It's uh yeah, I think it's like something like six million acres of of landlocked public land in Wyoming alone. It is it is a shocking, a shocking amount. But uh, but when I moved out here, uh I had I I just married my wife, and so I had I still had a ton of time. And my passion was to go uh explore public land. And looking at Onyx, I realized that there was there was a huge percentage of of public land in my home county out here where I could never access it, just couldn't do it. And so I started asking around, and people said, yeah, it's landlocked. And and it's a little embarrassing to admit, but before moving out to Wyoming six years ago, I I did not know that uh that landlocked public land was a thing. I I just didn't know it. So I started I started researching ways to get in there, and I found out the only way you can do it is to fly in. So, okay, not a problem. I'll uh I'll call air operators and find who has a bush plane or who has a helicopter, and they can take me in. Well, what I found was there's either very few people that are that are that are uh licensed to do it, you know, you got to have a very, very complex certificate from the uh FAA to take to take passengers uh on plane rides and land places. Or the other reason uh that they would say no to me is because they didn't want to upset the the local ranchers. So I I really struggled. And I it's it's uh you guys won't believe this, but it was a three-year quest to find a helicopter that could take us in and do a landlocked public land hunt. Three years. I think I called 26 air operators before I finally found Tony Chambers of Wind River Air, who said, uh who said, I can do it. Yeah, I'm licensed, I like doing that stuff. Let's do it. So we we did our first flying hunt in 2024, and it was uh it was a smashing success. It was uh it was a really cool thing. But it wasn't without its without its challenges. Uh every every single hunt we've done, uh we've been we've been harassed, threatened, or in the case of this most recent elk hunt, uh stolen from. It's it's it's it's a crazy, crazy thing. Uh yeah, even even having lived it and thought about this for you know hundreds of hours over the past few years, I'm still blown away by how uh by how upset people get about this.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

Yeah. It's it's a touchy subject. I mean, you know, there's obviously two sides of it, you know, there's the the people that say, you know, this is this is my land, I I pay my taxes, and you know, I'm a I'm a public landowner. I should be able to I should be able to use it. Um and then you have folks that uh don't want people going across their land for access. Um just a touchy scale. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

What I tell people, and and this is this is the part that uh I mean people most people have no clue, just like just like me. They have no clue what what uh what this public land is, how how how landlocked public land works. But uh, but I tell people this it is cheaper to rent a helicopter to fly across the state of Wyoming and take you on a four-minute ride across across private private land, you go above it, airspace, we all own the airspace, but it is cheaper to take a helicopter, uh fly it across the state, than it is to pay a trespass fee to drive across an existing road that might only be 200 feet. But it is cheaper to rent a turbine helicopter at $1,900 an hour than it is to pay for a trespass fee. So they uh they had a great thing going for a long time, but uh but now the demand for for hunting Western big game, whether it's elk, mule deer, antelope, the people are willing to pay so much money it's now cheaper for us to to rent a half million dollar helicopter to take us in. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

That's incredible. Yes, it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

It doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_05 26:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Wow. All right, let's do this. Here's what I want to do. Let's turn it over to Dudley. Let's do some rapid fires. Then when we finish that, we'll get into talking about calibers. Okay. All right, Dudley. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

All right, David. I'm gonna ask you about a dozen questions. Uh, just need a quick answer. We're we're trying to get to know you better.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

Yeah, rapid fire is brought to us to uh carcy, you're familiar, you see these nutrient trucks running up and down the road. Twinkie STs works there. Nutrients are one of our sponsors. They're just great, great folks. Okay, yep.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

So um all right, David. Um I see you're from Sheridan, Wyoming. Have you ever fired a Sheridan pellet gun? Yes. Okay, yeah, that was my first pellet gun at Sheridan.

SPEAKER_06 27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Benjamin, which is I think the same company. I think mine was a 20 caliber. All right. Uh what is the coldest temp you've ever experienced out in the field? Negative 31. Uh, name the make and model of the firearm uh you have most recently discharged.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Uh most recently discharged would be a Taurus TX-22 compact. Okay. Beautiful little pistol.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

Uh, and how old were you when you took your first servid? Deer, elk, deer, elk, mule deer, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Uh nine years old. Nine years old, and what was it taken with? Savage 99 and 253,000.

SPEAKER_04 27:48

Cool right choice. Uh what is the longest time you've ever been in the backcountry?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Uh, probably 10 days.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

Uh more often than not, do you use a suppressor while hunting?

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Over the last three years, exclusively using suppressors. Uh, unless unless I'm in a place like uh like Scotland last year where I did not use a suppressor there.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Okay. Um, so theoret uh hypothetically, if you're in a friendly competition with your buddies uh and you're shooting iron sights to 300 yards with a rest, which which round and model would you choose? Iron sights, open sights.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

I'd I'd go uh AR-15 with with irons two, two, three.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

Um have you ever contracted a tick-borne illness? Not that I'm aware of. What is your favorite burger near where you live?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Favorite burger, you know, I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, but I love a Big Mac from McDonald's.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Wasn't expecting that.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Definitely between that and the egg McMuffin, it's hard to beat.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

Nah, y'all can have it.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Um what okay? I think I know the answer to this that you've already been on. What is a bucket list dream tag you'd love to draw in your lifetime? Bighorn sheep. Okay. So you the wolf you have done. So sheep is next. Uh, and and last but not least, what is the most anemic round you've ever taken a white-tail, Muley, or blacktail with? 223. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Good ones. Yeah, those are those are good. Yes. All right, David, we got a lot of questions about calibers. But what one thing that's kind of bubbled up in my mind through the years, Carcy, myself, uh Lanny, if he was here, he would say, you know, gun companies send guns to us to use on hunts and stuff. And I bet uh, you know, through the years I filled out a lot of those yellow sheets uh for for guns. Is there a number that all of a sudden, if you hit that somebody with the uh in the government is gonna go, hey, this guy's got too many guns. Is there a number out there? I mean, I bet you filled out um a bunch of those sheets.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah, I think I think the uh the the ways you get flagged is if you have a uh a number like more than five handguns on a transfer. I think that's that's what they what they really key in on.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Don't worry about the long guns so much.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yeah, I I don't know. I I've I've never been flagged that I'm aware of. I've never had anything uh denied, but uh, but I've heard that if you try to do too many handguns, you can get you can get attention. Probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Yeah, they seem to they've made I mean it's so fast now. You go go across the street to Gary's uh gun comes in and you fill out the paperwork and just I mean it's almost instantaneous, it feels like.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah, here in Mississippi, if you've got a concealed carry license, they don't even have to uh check it. Yeah. It's considered okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

You're already pre-checked, so to speak. Basically. Yeah. Wow. So in your line of work, does all that paperwork seem is is that is that gonna change as we look forward? I mean, that's kind of an antiquated way of doing things in the past, uh, feels like, but is there a more modern way that you think is on the horizon?

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah, what I did what I did a couple years ago was I got my own FFL to eliminate having to go to local shop. So yeah, I've got my I've got my logbook right here. So guns come in and I just uh I just log them in that way. It is exponentially easier than having to do transfers at a at a separate shop.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

We used to have one here also, but uh I guess after Oklahoma City, I guess it was that they tightened down so much on with ATF that we gave ours up.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

It was just easier to use Gary's and well, yeah, we can just go across the street.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Yeah, yeah. All right, so look, David, uh let's talk about white-tailed deer first. What what are in your mind, what do you see as the most popular caliber for white-tailed deer and what's trending in in and becoming a more popular caliber?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah, you know, I don't know. There's there's so many um there's so many options and and so many regional preferences.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

You know, I don't I don't I don't know if I've ever hunted the South. Um I'm not sure I've ever hunted the the Southwest. So I can't I can't speak to what the most popular rounds are. If I had to, if I had to venture a guess, you know, over the last over the last five, ten years, I'd probably say the six five Creedmore. And and there's a there's a very good reason for that. Uh one thing I've learned after after doing this for many years is it doesn't matter what cartridge we use. All that matters is the bullet we use and if we place it right. So to me, I don't I don't get I don't get bogged down with with any of the any of the what it says in the head stamp. You know, uh a friend of mine, Tim Butler, he works at Weatherby, but he told me long long time ago, he said uh all all the cartridge is is just a powder vessel to launch whatever bullet you want at whatever velocity you want. And as long as you as long as you can use it and put the bullet where it needs to go, nothing else really matters.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

Good advice. Yeah. You know, I I think about so I look, if for if I if I'm gonna go out and shoot does, I've got a 243 and I just love it. It wor it works great. But uh if I if I there's a chance I might shoot a buck or something, I've got a 25 alt six that I love, that absolutely love. I can shoot a partition bullet in it and 117 grain nozzler, and it just it does a great job. But I grew up, you know, early on, I shot a 270 a lot, Carcy.

SPEAKER_06 33:48

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

I loved it. 130 grain partition and hard to beat. I it it it it kind of really is kind of hard to beat. Could you talk about how it seems like the 270, it just kind of jumped out of the O'Connor and all that. Uh it and it and it's just it it may be the perfect caliber. Am I wrong in assuming that for whitetails?

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Oh, I I think the 270 is fantastic. I don't, I don't think, uh I don't think anyone would argue that it's not effective round. Uh it's it's a very, very quick killer. It doesn't have a ton of recoil, which is which is important. Um yeah. 270 is every bit as good today as it was a hundred years ago.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

So if we invited you to come deer hunting this fall in Mississippi with us, and w which we may do that, but what what caliber would you want to bring? 223. Would you really?

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, at this at this point in my life, I uh I do not like recoil. I do not like loud muzzle blasts, and I know with uh with a lot of the bullets on the market in the 22 Centrifier realm, they uh they are so devastating that uh there's no reason to use anything, anything, anything bigger, especially if you're shooting inside, say, 300 yards. Like there's there's nothing. There's still a a place for for big magnums, but it's people shooting way further than I ever want to shoot. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Uh but I I would hate to rain on your parade, David, but I think that yeah it has to be 24 caliber here in mid-scale. There you go. That's a good choice, too. I don't know. I don't know. It used to be. I don't know if it's still. Richard, would you wake up and fact that?

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Yeah, I think we can use a 223 here. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Yeah, that's changed then late.

SPEAKER_04 35:35

If not, there's been a lot of youth hunters that are breaking breaking the law.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

Yeah, and uh including Dudley. Including my daughter.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

I've got this little bitty CZ Scout 223. Uh, it's got a set trigger on it. It's tiny. You know, it kind of looks like one of those African hunting rifles that you see, but it's it's really small. And I put a little fixed, older, fixed four-power scope on it, and I absolutely love that thing. All you need. Um I don't know about you, David, but I I shoot like a copper bullet uh on the end of it, and uh it expands really well. You always get a pass through, and if you put it in the right place, they run 25 yards and fall over.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yeah. One of the most enlightening hunts of my life, and it's I you know, maybe hunt is a stretch. It was more of a coal, a coal hunt, but uh down in down in South Texas back in 2013, Trigicon, Tridicon took a group of riders down there, and our instructions on this 100,000 acre, you know, free range ranch were to kill as many does and coal bucks as we could. And the only limitation that we had was uh how many how many deer you could fit in the back of a pickup if you had a pickup. Or, you know, my guide and I had this jeep with one of those hitch haulers, so we had to get really creative with with lashing lashing deer to the back of that hitch hauler. But in in uh two or three days, I think we killed something like 160 deer. I know, I know my guide and I killed 30 some, maybe 36 deer. And it was cool because I was able to use multiple cartridges. So I started with the 223 with premium, I think it was hog hammer, Remington hog hammer ammo. And so it was a TSX bullet, uh Barnes TSX, and uh, and it's a premium controlled expansion bullet. And so I shot, I think I shot 10 deer with the uh with a 223 with that, with that uh premium bullet, and they ran uh you know 20 to 40 yards every time. And then uh we had a a box of just cheap 55 grain soft point 223. So I shot another five or six deer with that with that soft point bullet. And you know, these are all shots inside 200 yards, but I tried to go for lungs every time to get to get consistency there, make it as scientific as possible. But uh, but that 55 grain soft point, uh, the distance those those deer traveled was was a fraction of what of what the the premium bullet did. And the reason is very simple. That that bullet was going in and it was dumping all of its energy into the vitals. You know, if it was passing through, it wasn't it wasn't leaving much energy on the table. Whereas the the premium copper bullet was ripping through like an arrow. And it was leaving a uh a wound channel, but a much much narrower one. So after that, I went to uh the 306 and the 308. And there was there was not much difference on these on these South Texas Whitetail, how far they traveled. The 30.6 and the 308, there was there was really no difference between that and the 223, which opened my eyes. And then the final gun and cartridge combo I used was uh a Remington R25. It was their their AR10 platform, and it was in 243. And I've always I've always I've always been a fan of the 243 because I don't like recoil. And uh and so sure enough, my guide and I went out and we shot we shot 10 deer with that 243 with with just a a tipped 95 grain SST type bullet, I think it was. But uh, but those those uh 10 deer we shot with the 243, all but one of them was down in his tracks, never even took a step. So that that taught me a lot right there. You know, there's it's it's a fine balance between low recoil, speed, and and dumping maximum energy inside that chest cavity that results in quick kills. And you're lung shooting all these deer.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

Every one of them. Carcy, if I if you if I ask you to go hunting come November, what what caliber for white tail are you gonna bring?

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Uh probably either a 6'5 Creedmoor or uh 65 by 55 Swede.

SPEAKER_04 39:39

Dudley, what about you? Um I've you know I've always carried a 30 alt six, but I I like to take a occasionally take an AR or you know, take the the rifle that I got for my son, you know, that that 223 I was telling you about. Um I've got a single shot 243 that I love, uh a 300 blackout. I I kind of like to mix it up. It just it makes your season more fun. But yeah, you know, try a different weapon. Richie, what about you?

SPEAKER_07 40:07

Yeah, I got a 30.6 as well, I take. Uh I have a daughter that, you know, she shoots a 3030 that I grew up shooting, and then uh youngest shoots still shooting a 223.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

I'm just shocked at this 223. I well, you've always shot, you know, a smaller caliber compared to most of us. So but not a 223. Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

So if the bullets, yeah. The development of really good bullets. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 40:36

Now, David, so you're talking about the 223. As I said, my my kids you know grew up shooting 223. Now, I guess can you just talk about I've gotten, you know, I guess you say as they get older and they're able to take you know a bigger gun, but this the 223 would kind of make me nervous shooting, you know, bigger deer bucks, you know, that might uh instead of you know smaller game, smaller like does, you know. I was a little nervous about that.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Oh yeah. Yeah. The first time I I shot a big game animal with the 223, I think it was 2009. And it was a it was a doe antelope in Montana. And I remember I remember I was I was like shaking. I was so scared that it wouldn't, it wouldn't penetrate, it wouldn't kill the animal. And shot this doe, it ran 10, 20 yards and and keeled over. And I remember skinning out, looking at the vitals, and thinking, there is no way that someone would say that this is an ineffective wound channel. Like it, it was it was devastating. I was using the right bullet, I forget what it was back then. Uh but uh but yeah. If you if you look at all the big game animals that we chase, and now I'm not talking rhinos or elephant, but if you look at all the big game animals and you and you cut into their side, there is not that much difference between penetrating the vitals to get into a coyote versus penetrating the vitals to get into uh you know a buffalo's lungs. It it is really not that much. And and I'm of the opinion now that that honestly, all these high-powered center fire rifles, and I'm including the 223 in that, they all produce such comparable wound channels when when you use the right bullet and you put that bullet in the right spot, that there's that there's again, unless you're shooting extended distance where you need to maintain velocity to initiate expansion, there's there's no reason whatsoever to use a big boomer anymore. There's they're just not. I'm not saying they don't work. It's just that that with uh with with with all the stuff that that humanity has gleaned over the past 125 years, uh small caliber, high velocity projectiles are just as effective now as they were when the 220 Swift came out or the 253,000 came out. I mean, speed kills. It really does. And and and I I I encourage you guys, next time you're on an elk hunt or or you go shoot a moose, I mean look at the look at the look at the distance that bullet has to travel to get through the hide and through the rib cage and into the lungs. And once you're in the once you're in the chest cavity, the lungs are just are just you know like cotton candy. It's it's just it's just it's just an air sack, really. And it it does not take a lot to kill to kill animals. Now, the uh the greatest argument against using small caliber projectiles is is my friend and colleague, Joseph Bon Bon Benedict. And he always says, what if you're on the last day of your hunt and there's a gigantic bull elk and he's quartering away? In that case, he is correct. You know, uh a premium big bullet that will drive through the the guts with all sorts of uh with all sorts of forage that are that's in their their stomach, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna have a better chance to do it. But you know, in the in the time I've been hunting, like there's been a only a few times where I had to make a make a snapshot on a on a poor angle like that.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Well so before we leave two twenty three, uh I gotta ask, so if you if so if the lungs aren't available and you try to shoot that you try to shoot a buck in the shoulder, how is that bullet gonna perform? In that scenario.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Great. Yeah. I've got a buddy up in Alaska who uses 223 and he shot he shot grizzlies with it. He shoots moose with it every year. He uh he uses uh ultra-lightweight bolt action AR in 223. And he's experimented with quite a few match bullets, but they they all go through and they all kill just like his big stuff. I mean he's he's really convinced me that uh that placement is everything and and these these bullets are uh are far more comparable in their terminal effects uh than it it's not like it's not like a 223 is closer to an arrow. A 223 is way closer to a 338 wind mag than it is than it is an arrow. And all these animals we're talking about, people go out and chase them every year with stick and string. So I I don't I don't get too stressed about that.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

That's an excellent point. It is comparing it to an arrow. And you know, that copper bullet that zips right through would I mean, even though it does a lot of devastation on the inside, it would be close to shooting an arrow. As would like a I would think the closest would be somebody experimenting with those uh expandable subsonic bullets. Uh that's that's probably about as close to a a broadhead as you can get, and and people use those all the time.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

So, David, let's uh for conversation's sake, let's move west a bit and say you're going on a mule deer hunt or an elk hunt. Is there a cow or tell me you're not gonna say 223 here? I mean, what what what what would you pick up and go with there?

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Well, in Wyoming, we can't use 22 centrifires on elk, so that rules that out. But uh but the closest I would say to to a low recoil, easy to shoot round is a six arc. Uh and and the six arc is is uh is a very fun, very fun round. Now I'm not I'm not shooting it at six hundred yards. My goal, my goal always is to get inside 200. If I can get into 30 yards like that wolf, hey, that's great. But uh but a six arc is is a very, very tough one, tough one to beat. It it has recoil more like uh more like a two, two, three. And uh if you look at the expansion velocity needed for these for these match bullets to work, typically around 1800 feet per second, uh with a six arc and a and a 16-inch barrel, that puts me out 550, 600 yards. So it's it's beyond whatever I need to beyond whatever I need to shoot at. But uh I would say if if if uh if we're going on elk hunt tomorrow, I'm probably gonna take a six mm Creedmore. That's that's a little more forgiving. And Wyoming, we can have a wind. And if I do need to, if I do need to stretch it out a bit on a on a big bull elk, six Creedmore is what I take. But uh but but to be completely honest with with you guys, I don't I don't think I'm ever gonna own anything above a six five again. I uh I have too much fun shooting suppressed smaller caliber bullets that uh I don't I don't see any reason to to go big. And it's not that I haven't used big big rounds. I have. I've I've used uh I've used 338 wind mag on moose, brown bear, uh killed my first coyote with a 338 wind mag. Yeah, that was a that was a devastating wound channel. I dare say. But but but anymore, I mean, I mean the the six millimeter is such and it and it's just a modern 243. There's there's nothing there's nothing magical about the six mm Creedmore case. It's it's got a it's got incredible design geometry. Um all factory rifles shoot well, and you got the fast twist barrel, which allows you to stabilize the the heavier, you know, 108 and above uh match bullets or or hunting bullets that uh that drift very little in the wind, and uh, and they just they just work.

SPEAKER_03 47:41

So is is the tell me that there's got to be more knockdown power though in a larger caliber at 200 yards on a bull elk, uh if if say you're shooting a 300 wind mag versus shooting a 6'5. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Yeah, you waste it on the waste it on the terrain behind it, uh, behind your animal.

unknown 48:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

How dead is dead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:05

You know, uh, and then you have the blood trail argument, you know, and and I'm assuming, you know, you you probably do get more of a blood trail with a pass-through on a you know, with a lar a more bigger diameter bullet. But um, you know, if they're if you make a good shot in the kill zone, uh then they shouldn't go far anyway, is is kind of my thought.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

I was here's an interesting little thing. I was uh I did an article on Loophold's uh rangefinding binoculars for for one of our magazines recently. And I I was interviewing Loopold's product project or product manager for the for the rangefinding stuff. And she said something that that it really struck me because she said she said with with the ballistic software we're we're all using these days, and dialable scopes and and uh really accurate rounds, she said she said the the distance that we can we can cleanly kill animals isn't the limitation anymore. And I and I I I was listening very closely when she said this, but she said the distance isn't the limitation anymore. The the biggest limitation we have for big game hunting is if you're able to find where you hit that animal to recover it. And I thought to myself, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. You know, because there's a lot of skilled shooters out there that are killing animals at you know, shocking distances that even even a decade ago we would have been just, you know, mouths the gape. But uh, but she said that a good shooter using using using everything, uh, everything uh state of the art, they can they can kill animals at such distances that the hardest part now is finding out exactly where you hit that animal and recovering it. And that's and that's what she was she was alluding to with her uh with the the new binoculars that Lucold came out with. They've got that geotagging stuff where you can you can know exactly where you hit that animal. But but that stuck with me. It was it was a really good point. And and is there applications for shooting that far? Obviously there are. You know, the market wants it. But but for me, I uh I don't I don't care too much about blood trails because I want to watch that animal die in sight. And and for me to do that is to shoot a low recoiling, uh, explosive type bullet that's gonna go in and destroy the lung tissue and incapacitate that animal quickly. So I don't need to worry about blood trailing it. Now, there's certain places obviously where the the you're you're hunting in a jungle or real thick timber where you do need that blood trail. So choose accordingly. But out here in Wyoming, I don't I don't I don't need that.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

Uh before we leave leave this, could you explain how that Leopold binocular that how it geotags and it and helps you know where you hit?

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Yeah, it it it basically pairs with with uh you know on X type software. I've never played with one. But yeah, it uses GPS and and it marks on the uh on the 3D landscape exactly where this animal is. So you can use it to and and there's other there's other uh optics that use this, but uh but the loophole's the one I was I was I was talking with her about. But you can you can geotag it and find out exactly where that where that animal is, so you can stop closer, or you can tag it to know exactly, hey, the animal's right here when I hit it. So if it ran off into the brush line, you've got a good starting point to go find it.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

Yeah, okay. That makes sense. Yeah, well, that's technology is incredible.

SPEAKER_04 51:12

I'm telling you, keep coming up with more and more cool stuff.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Yeah, well, but look, let me ask this. So let's say you draw a moose hunt in Alaska. What are you gonna take up? I'm real curious to know what you would take.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

A moose hunt in Alaska, boy. Um I hate to be boring, but I'm probably gonna take a six arc or six creed more. You're pretty consistent.

SPEAKER_04 51:36

The six arc, six millimeter arc is a newish round. Um, I've kind of been obsessing over it lately, and uh, you know, you can get this uh like an ultra short action for it. Um it's shorter than a short action. Um, and you can get like a you know a 16-inch barrel and put a can on the end of it, and it may only weigh seven pounds with a scope, you know. Um, and it's really interesting. The the cartridge, uh, it kind of looks to me like a what is it, like a 300 blackout with a really, really long bullet on the end of it. Okay. Uh is that right? What what is the case based off of?

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Uh it's based off the six five Grendel.

SPEAKER_04 52:23

Okay, a six five Grendel. Yeah. So it's a shorter, fatter cartridge.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's a little bit it's a little bit larger diameter than the 223, but it's still designed to work in the the AR-15 magazines, which is a limitation for cartridge overall length. But yeah, the the six arc is is kind of the sweet spot for for uh short action rounds where you need to be shooting uh a larger bullet than than uh 22 caliber. Uh a lot of people are also using uh the six by 45, which is which is simply uh uh a 223 nicked up to six millimeter. And and that does that does uh that does shockingly well, especially through bolt guns where you can boost the pressure up.

SPEAKER_04 53:02

Yeah, and it it seems to be kind of the new thing, you know. Uh uh in the past, you know, people were getting these rifles with the 28-inch barrel and and tricking it out. And it seems like pit folks are going and you know, now that suppressors are more popular and we've realized how awesome they are, you know, for recoil and and everything. Um but uh you know, like around here, we may be in a shooting house with a tripod, and you don't want that really long barrel, but uh you can be just as effective with a 16-inch barrel. Uh and and that does slow some of the rounds down a little bit, but it doesn't seem to make a a big difference downrange, you know, when it's and that is something that people don't people don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

It is not it is not the speed you start at that matters, it is the speed your bullet impacts at, which matters. So, yes, you do you do lose velocity by going to a 16-inch barrel. Um you lose velocity going to a 20-inch barrel compared to a 28, depending on the depending on the round. But uh but all that matters is is if you have enough impact velocity to initiate expansion for that bullet. That's that's when it comes to killing animals, that's all that matters right there.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

Velocity and bullet choice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Where does a six five Western fit into all that? I've I've heard a lot of good things about it. Is it comparable?

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Yeah, the the 6'8 Western is a is a short mag bullet. Yeah, yeah. It's uh I think it's I think it's based off the the 300 short mag family, but it's it's very comparable to uh 65 PRC, just uses a uh 277 caliber bullet. So it is it is the uh the modern hunting equivalent of the the 270.

SPEAKER_04 54:44

And then there's another new round uh that kind of capitalizes on the shorter barrel. It's got uh the case is made out of some kind of alloy, the the 6'8 backcountry.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

Yep, seven millimeter backcountry.

SPEAKER_04 55:01

Yeah um and so uh it's it seems like they're able to get the velocity and all that other good stuff out of a shorter barrel uh using a case that can handle more pressure.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

But uh boy, there's just been some real innovations. Yeah, it's it's amazing stuff. On on our first flying hunt, uh I used the Stephen Backcountry and and shot a shot a bull elk on our on our first night on that hunt, and it was uh it was fun to use that new technology. I I'm not a I'm not a recoil guy, so it's a bit much for me, but I was using I think a 20-inch barrel with a suppressor on that thing. And uh yeah, it's a it's a it's a powerhouse. Uh Federal did did a did an amazing, amazing job there. And I I can't wait for that technology to trickle down to the smaller stuff. Because for people like me who like shooting the small stuff, you know, if you get that peak galloway case and you're using it with a 223, for example, all of a sudden you don't you're not limited to uh 223 type ballistics, you're getting 22250 ballistics with a with a with a much much heavier bullet in that fast twist barrel. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 56:05

All right, let's ask the question now. Uh uh there's been so many changes, but if somebody pointed at me and said, What kind of rifle would you want? It I would I would lean toward a bolt action. And I've got a couple of single shot rifles that I really like. I don't really think about automatics or I don't really think about these AR frames that much. I'm kind of a traditional guy, but what is the world what I know I'm not the norm, I wouldn't think, but what what is the world going to these days? What are people liking the most?

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Oh, in in in my mind, based on based on sales, people are going precision bolt rifles. That is that is the market right now for firearms. It is it is precision bolt guns and it's suppressors. ARs, AR stuff is way down. Uh for so many years, people were buying every every semi-auto they could get. And uh and that and that really subsided. Um precision bolt guns are hot. And you know, on the flip side, uh a huge growing segment that we've seen is is lever actions. People are people are going back to lever actions. There you go, Richie.

SPEAKER_07 57:14

Actually, the 3030 I got is a uh bolt action.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

Oh, is that right?

SPEAKER_07 57:18

Yeah, so it's yeah, it's not a lever action.

SPEAKER_03 57:19

Yeah. You know, I've seen these browning lever actions, they're so pretty. And uh I they're in a bunch of different cows. You can get one in a 243 car, yeah. I've always wanted to shoot a deer with one of those.

SPEAKER_04 57:30

It's just uh And that it's real common to find them in a threaded barrel these days.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

Yeah, a whole lot of them have threaded barrels, even quote, tactical, you know, with plastic stocks and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

Well you're j uh uh getting to test all these guns, David. It's gotta be a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Yeah, it is it's a blast.

SPEAKER_03 57:51

What what companies do you see No pun intended. Give me a second. What are all the companies keeping up or are there others that are that are uh distancing themselves in the with the technology? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm just asking. I don't I I really don't know. What what what is your thoughts there?

SPEAKER_01 58:11

Oh I think I think uh I think over the last five years, uh every company has has done some innovation to keep up. Uh I mean you've got Taurus making making precision bolt actions now. That's something I never would have predicted. And then you've got you've got Henry who is who's uh producing as many firearms as almost anyone, and and they're sticking with with lever actions, you know, both traditional ones that that that scream early 1900s and also modern ones with carbon fiber barrels. So yeah, I mean the the amount of innovations is uh is is breathtaking. It's it's it's hard for it's hard for me as a professional to keep up. It uh yeah, every day it seems like there's a there's a new one. Now, I'm a bolt action guy. I I love them. And one of the things I've been playing with a lot is folding stocks. So to me, that is such a cool thing because I do a lot of my stuff with backpack on, and rather than rather than carrying the rifle slung on my shoulder, I can fold the stock and strap it to my pack and and climb up you know a huge ridge and glass, and if I need to take it off and pop the stock into into position, and I'm good to go. So so that that's another one that's uh that's amazing. On this, on this uh this bear slash wolf hunt last month, I was using Seekin's Element Hunter, and and that is a really cool action in so many ways. It's it's aluminum with a with a barrel extension that the bolt locks into. And so the the weight is very weight is very low for the action and and barrel. But uh, but they've got a they've got a neat traditional foreend that is that is carbon fiber and it feels like like any modern stock. But at the rear, you have you have uh a hinge and you can fold that stock to the right side and it it uh it it shaves so much length that it uh it's it's pretty much all I hunt with now on my own hunts is a is a folding stock bowl gun. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

These carbon barrels, uh is that primarily are you trying to shave some weight off? Are they more accurate? What what's uh what's the selling point there?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

I think honestly, I think the selling point is they look cool. I think that's I think that's the main reason. Because if you really want to go the lightest weight barrel possible, you you don't go carbon wrap barrels. I I did a I did a a custom Kimber bolt action a couple years ago, and I tried to go as low as possible. And it was at a gunsmith for three years working on it. But he got this, he got this Kimber down to three pounds, 10.6 ounces in a 308. And it was uh it was it was really, really lightweight, and it was a switch barrel. So I also had a six mm Creedmore barrel, you know, you know, so I'm coming back to that. I also had a six Creedmore barrel uh done on that one, which was 20 inches. But uh, but in that kind of application where you want the absolute lowest weight, uh no no carbon wrapped barrel is as light as a just a pencil profile steel barrel. But to me, the biggest advantage for for carbon is it's a lot easier to hold in your hands. Like that, that to me is the big selling point because if if it's a cold morning and you grab your barrel, it's you you guys know how how cold metal feels. Uh so the carbon just insulates your hand a little bit. Now, do they enhance accuracy? Um, do they increase barrel cooling? Well, a lot of companies claim different things there. Um I'm not I'm not certain that's the case until I see Ben Tresh shooters start winning championships with carbon wrap barrels. I'm probably gonna assume that that traditional steel um has less machining, less stress-induced uh imperfections in it. So, so yeah, I I I think that carbon barrels are amazing technology, but uh, but I don't I don't believe I don't believe they're the end all be all.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

Well, let me ask this. What about scope mounts? Um I mean through the years, I grew I grew up working in a little sporting goods store and we I mounted a lot of scopes. And we, you know, we're we always taught people that you really need good scope mounts. You need a good scope. You need good scope mounts, don't go cheap on that kind of stuff. But I see now that there's a lot of innovations in scope mounts and these rails and whatnot. Are they as good as those traditional old-style solid one-piece mounts?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

Yeah, I I think that I think that uh people are starting to learn now that that you do you definitely do not want to skimp on your scope or mounts. I think that's probably the biggest faux pas that modern shooters do. They they go cheap. And the junction between your scope and your rifle is is such a critical thing. Uh yeah. I I there there's there's a lot of really good scope mounts out there. Um people are people are learning to pay attention to that. But uh but yeah, uh the the Picatinny rail on top of the receivers, uh it makes it so easy to get the rings of your choice and the height of your choice. You know, whether you're going 30 millimeter or one inch scope rings uh or scope scope tube. Uh yeah. Uh it's there's there's there's been a huge polar proliferation of of modern opt-in op options that uh that yeah I can't even keep up with.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:16

What about aluminum versus steel? Um I know you know folks have kind of innovated on the aluminum. Is it is it just as trustworthy as a as the heavier steel when it comes to mounts and rings?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

Yeah, I I believe so. I think if you get if you get the right aluminum one made with 7075, I think that uh that you can shave a little weight and maintain the rigidity needed. Uh the ones the ones I've been using for the last five years uh that I swear by are Seekins Precision uh aluminum rings. They they are fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:49

You familiar with those, Carsi? I'm not. I'm very familiar with the brand Seacins.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:55

Yeah. So let me ask you this, David. Let's just say we brought you down here to Mississippi to go on a whitetail hunt this fall, and when we'd love you, you and Carcy's gonna be you're gonna you're gonna ride with Carsi at you know in his on his on his four-wheeler, his three-wheeler, whatever he's got. You got a couple mile ride, and he's got some racks on the front of it where you could lay your rifle up there on your on the rack. Are you gonna do are you gonna take that option or are you gonna put it over your shoulder and hold on to it?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

I'd hold on to it every chance I got.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:26

Yeah, I see people put these guns in these racks and then ride down dirt roads on four-wheelers, and I just think that can't be good. I mean the scope vibrating and all that. And uh are you are you nitpicky about your scope getting banged and worrying about knocking it off? Have you had some experiences where it didn't take much to knock it off, and some others where it you hit it hard and it didn't even knock it off?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Yeah, yeah. I've I've uh I've had one bad, bad spill, and it was it was in the the mountains of Washington, and I crossed a frozen creek in uh in October, and sure enough, my feet went right out, and I came down directly on my loophole scope. And that was the only time I can think of where I I legit knocked the zero off. I was I was off a foot because I stopped I stopped hunting and went back and checked zero and was off. But uh I've got a fascinating story about about uh about zero. So we were in we were in West Texas back in 2022, and it was an audat hunt. And a lot of my buddies, they asked me what what rifle they should they should bring, and I said, I said, uh you might be shooting further. So I brought them this custom 6.5 PRC I had, and it was a Zurmat TL3 action, which is just a premium action at a proof research prefit barrel that you could just twist in on your own. Um it had a MDT HT 26 folding chassis made with magnesium and carbon fiber, and it had it had seeking rings holding on a Bushnell long range hunting scope, a 3 to 12 by 44, which is discontinued. But was one of the best, best, uh, best long-range hunting optics ever made. Okay, so I brought that down there and and my buddies used it. And so we cruised around this ranch for four days, probably on side by sides and some of the roughest, god-awful roads you've ever seen. Okay, so my buddy Joel, he he was using this rifle and he shot his awdad with it. And after he after he shot his awdad, I think it was 300, it could have been even 400 yards, long, long poke. But he handed the rifle to to the guide. And the guide said, Hey, your rifle is loose. And so the guide spun the barrel back into the action. And I did not torque it down appropriately because it's a switch barrel. And so I just did it hand tight. But he was cruising around these uh these rough roads, and that barrel actually backed out like three quarters of a turn, and it still had the necessary precision to shoot an odd at it at extended distance. I I was I was I was floored by that. But it goes to show you that that uh yes, if you if you get your scope loose, yeah, you're gonna have problems. But even with a loose barrel in this particular case, it didn't it didn't matter. That that was shocking to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:07

Hey man. I've never heard of a barrel coming loose. That's that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

Well, yeah, well, that that was because the installer didn't didn't torque it down properly because I didn't think I needed to.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

Look, that rifle he described, I bet he didn't get that at Walmart. I dare say. Oh my goodness. Wow. What about bullets? Can we hit on that a little bit? Is there a certain style of bullet that you prefer for if you're gonna hunt uh deer, elk?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:35

Yeah, I I I love uh I love match bullets. And none of the manufacturers are gonna tell you that you should use a match bullet. And I don't fully understand why that is because the match bullets, they work so well. The bullet, the bullet in that 6.5 PRC, for example, uh, between me and my buddies, we use that on on bull elk at 495 yards, two odd ad rams beyond 300 yards. I shot a couple whitetail in Wyoming with it, uh, all shots beyond 300 yards. And we were shooting the I was shooting the 147 ELDM from Hornady. And that uh that was just a fantastic bullet. I've also I've also grew up shooting Nosler's ballistic tips as a kid. I haven't I haven't used them in recent years, but the polymer tip on the bullet initiates expansion and it it just kills stuff. It just kills stuff. Uh those those are the bullets I like and use. Um I'm not saying that the that the premium copper bullets aren't great because because they they definitely work. And just expose lead tip soft points, they work, they work great. But if I had to pick any bullet to go on a dream hunt, it's gonna be it's gonna be a polymer-tipped match bullet.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:46

Isn't that you know, like the innards of that are uh what a lot of these long-range bullets are based off of now? Uh, you know, I I read an article a few years ago where people were talking about how they shot that Amax bullet, you know, for long range uh deer and elk and whatnot. And uh it seems like some of these companies, you know, followed suit uh based off of that. Um is you know, a match bullet is not really made to have perfect expansion. Uh it just kind of explodes once it gets in there, but that just you know tears up the vitals. And so uh they kind of took that concept and and used that uh to make some of these long-range bullets, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

Yeah, the uh modern modern bullet design is is uh is incredible. And and and and there's there's so much that goes into these these bullet manufacturers. They can they can do whatever they want. They can they can bond the lead core to the jacket to get to get controlled expansion. You can you can thicken the jacket to slow down expansion. You can you can make a thinner jacket to uh to get explosive effects. You can you can leave a gap in the front that that will promote expansion. There's there's just a a a million things that that they're doing today. But uh, but yeah, the the match bullets that are heavy for caliber, you know, like six millimeter be you know the 108 and above range. The uh the 65 would be the 140 and above range. Uh the the 30 caliber stuff, you start getting the 212s. I mean, it's a it's amazing the amount of damage you can get in these bullets that are that are capable of unheard of precision.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

I'm gonna have to try some some of that. Yeah. And I'm I'm afraid that you have cost me some money in getting a six ARC.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

Oh, it's it's a tough one to beat. Now, if if you guys, if you guys really want to want to explore uh a couple different things we've talked about, and and feel free to to say I'm wrong, but uh but take a 223 and use uh Black Hills ammunition. They load uh uh they load 77 grain tipped match king bullets from Sierra, and those are probably about the best factory two two three load offering, and it's about the best bullet for hunting big game. It's a 77-grain tipped match king, but that produces you know 12 to 18 inch wound channels that are the size of a beer can or a coke can. And and just think about that and and go out and use it on a deer and and and come back and tell me that it doesn't work. But uh as long as your impact above 1800 feet per second, that's gonna kill whatever you need to kill.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:29

Yeah, that's right. That's you know about 20 grains more than your your typical 223. You know, they're usually around 55 or 62.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:38

So I've been using these 55 copper bullets, so I can't wait to try that 77 match gang.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:48

So, David, talk to us about um your if you've got a process for cleaning your rifles and how often you do that. And just I I don't think people probably clean their barrels enough, and I'm guilty of it, but what does a guy need to do ideally?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

Oh, there's there's a lot of lot of amazing ways to clean your barrel. Uh I don't do any of them. I really don't. I just take the bolt out and wipe, wipe down the bolt, and I just keep shooting. I I can't tell you last time I I cleaned uh a rifle barrel. I just with center fire rifles, I just I just don't worry about it. It doesn't it doesn't matter. And and uh based on the the professionals when it comes to accuracy, uh a clean barrel will not be will not be right on. And so they often do fouling shots to get a little to get a little crud in the barrel. So uh yeah, I mean I'm not a I'm not a high volume shooter, but uh but no, I don't I don't see any reason to to clean the barrel. That makes me feel a lot better.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:47

What about uh what about breaking in a barrel?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:52

Yeah, I I think that that break in does does matter. Um and that's and that's one of the challenges that that uh that people in my line of work have. You know, I think in order to get the barrel to settle down and and do its best accuracy, you probably need a couple hundred rounds through it. And that's just cost prohibitive for all the testing stuff. So I don't I don't worry about that. I know I know that uh as I as I get my rifles ready for hunting, I pay attention to the velocity because as you get more rounds through it, it will speed up. And so that can throw you off if you're if you're trying to do precision shots at long range. So I think I think round count there matters. But but all the barrel manufacturers I've I've consulted on this stuff, uh they they have a huge range of of ways to do it. Fire one round, clean it. Fire another round, clean it. I don't have time for that. I I typically find that the rifles either shoot well out of the gate or they don't. So I don't I don't I don't get bogged down with all that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:46

So just sending a few down the pipe helps to helps to break it in.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:52

Yeah. I I think the the number one thing that every single hunter in the world could do more of is shoot. Uh the more you shoot, the better you're gonna be with your gun, the better you're gonna know wind drift at distance. Uh yeah. I mean that's that's really the that's really the the obvious way to get better is just shoot more. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:11

And I'll throw this out there. You know, you you keep hitting on these uh two, two, threes. Uh they're cheaper to shoot.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:18

So there's another definite benefit. Uh David, you're you probably shoot a lot more than than the average guy. Can you walk us through mentally what you do? Like if you're on the side of a mountain and you're fixing to take a 150-yard, 200-yard shot at a something, um let's just say a mule deer. What do you is there like a little sequence you go through to check all the boxes before you make the shot?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:45

No, I just I just worry about getting as steady as I can. And if you know in Wyoming, there's a lot of places where you can get prone. So if you've got a little bipod, great. You know, get the lower you are to the ground, the more steady you're gonna be. But uh oftentimes there's sagebrush or there's grass, you gotta get above. But uh all I try to do is get as steady as possible. That's it. And and one of the things that I've what I that I've realized is you don't need you're not you're not shooting an egg, for example. You're you're shooting for lungs. And with an antelope or deer-sized animal, that's a pie plate. So I don't, I don't get too, I don't get too persnickety about about uh making sure my my body's in its in its in its most natural resting place. I I don't do that. I just I just try to get steady and and send it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:31

I love the practicality of this guy. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:34

He really is. Yeah, for sure. Oh wow. David, what should we be asking you? I'm I'm sure that you probably thought these knuckleheads will ask me this.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

No, you guys are you guys are asking amazing stuff. I'm I'm enjoying this. This is fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:48

All right, I've got one. Um a lot of folks use you know some type of rest when they're siding in their rifles. Um you know, Caldwell makes a lead sled. I'm sure you know other companies make something that's like heavy that that helps with the recoil. I have I have been told that uh you're uh when you're using like a lead sled or something that you you know you clamp the gun into, it can affect the impact of the round. Yeah. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

Yeah, but there but there's so much more that goes into it. Uh you know, you gotta you gotta look at the at the at the total amount of of uh of recoil energy. You know, so if you're shooting a if you're shooting a 22, for example, uh if you're shooting, say, a 12 pound 22, I don't think it matters whatever you put that thing in, because there's not enough not enough recoil to disturb the you know the weight of the gun. But if you're starting to get into uh you know a six-pound 300 Winchester Magnum, well, when you strap that thing into a lead sled, all of a sudden your six-pound gun is gonna recoil way differently because now it could be you know equivalent to a 25-pound bench gun. So I I I think that there is a lot of stuff to to pay attention to that uh I've I've not done the testing necessary. Uh but yeah, I I haven't used a lead sled for for many years. They're they're excellent, excellent for uh for the big magnums because they cut so much recoil. But but I think that that that you're spot on. You you you need to be aware. At the very minimum, once you get your gun sided in, you know, use use your shoulder and use and use bags or a bipod to get that recoil as as as close to it you're gonna experience in the field. Because there could be a drastic point of impact difference.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:35

Okay, good to know. Yeah, it makes a good point. Richie, why don't you ask him a trivia question?

SPEAKER_07 1:17:41

All right. So here we go. All right, Dave. So in your adventures out west in Texas and on your hunts, what type of snacks do you uh take with you in the field? Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:55

Snacks, that's that's uh that's a good one. I honestly will end up just taking granola bars that I have. Uh my wife will get a bunch of granola bars for the kids, so I'll often raid the pantry for those before going. But uh, but yeah, uh food in the backcountry to me is just energy. I don't I don't get too caught up in it. Uh yeah, I just I just take whatever I have, hope it has some some good calories in it, and uh eat when I'm hungry and and hunt the rest of the time. I guess a big twin a big can of boiled peanuts might be a little heavy to take out west.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:32

For sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:35

So uh today's trivia is brought to us by our friends at the Peanut Patch. We'd love boiled peanuts, David.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:40

Uh, you probably don't have any out there in Sheridan. Uh Wow. Uh where where is he? He's in Sheridan, Wyoming. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 1:18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:48

Boiled peanuts are good. It's been 20 years since I've had any, but I I enjoyed them.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:52

So here we go. So Winchester and Browning are two iconic brands. Which brand appeared first in the marketplace? Winchester Easy.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:02

Yeah, that was easy. Richie. Well, ask him the bonus when you got there.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:07

All right. So, yes. Uh, so yes, it Winchester was founded in 1866, and then Browning started manufacturing in the late 1870s. So here's our bonus question. What does the M in John M. Browning stand for? Moses.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:26

I read that.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:30

Wow. We might have to send him some peanuts. Browning is the god of gun designers. Yes, he is. Pretty amazing. The most amazing thing about Browning's designs, like I don't know how many patents he had over the course of his lifetime for firearms, but the most amazing thing to me is the Browning M2 50 caliber machine gun is still the standard issue 50 caliber machine gun. And it's been in service for 100 years now, over 100 years. That that right there is impressive.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:00

Yeah, that whole company is impressive. All that the boy, they just they make some beautiful guns. They're so functional. And I'll I'm a big, I'm a big Browning fan there. But Richie, good questions. You didn't trip him up though.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:11

No, oh, you're trying to pat yourself on the back there. That's what you do about because Bobby gives me these questions, you know, the trivia. Those were pretty easy for you, David. Yeah, he knocked them out quick.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:21

Yeah. David, you got any questions for us? Anything you might uh like to ask us? Um, what's your guys' dream hunt? That's a great question. Why don't you go first, Carcy?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:35

Uh my age, that's probably a little narrower than it used to be, but I would like to go on another uh Alaskan brown bear hunt. I went in '91, killed a small one in on Chichigaf Island. And I love that and wanted to go back. Oh, cool. That's on Kodiak, right? No, Chichigov is southeast Alaska, really. Okay, cool. A lot of fun. Did you kill a big one? No, not a not a great big bear, but with an hour left on the last day of a 10-day hunt, it's big enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:12

Yeah. I don't my my dream hunt, I've always said was uh a caribou hunt. Oh yeah. And I don't I don't, you know, that maybe that has changed a little bit, but um I've always thought it would be cool to hide behind some big rock and wait till they come by and you know I've seen it on TV. And so yeah, that's mine.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:33

What about you, Rich? Uh, you know, I filmed uh Alaska Moose Hunt, you know, 10 years ago, and it was just uh most eye-opening, coolest hunt I've ever been on. And I would love to go back there with a rifle in my hand instead of a camera. Uh it was just uh it was a cool deal, you know, chase a moose.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:51

Yeah. For me, I would uh, you know, and and I've been several times, but I've never killed one. I would like to kill a big hard-horned mule deer. That's high on my list of things to do. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:05

Maybe some listener will invite you and take you on a mule deer.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:08

Yeah, no, but that a lot that that uh that that moose hunt in Alaska does sound like a lot of fun, Rich.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:13

Yeah, it would. Yeah. There are so many, so many adventures to go on. There's just not enough time and money to do it all. But those are excellent, those are excellent ones. What I would say is for the caribou in particular, you should go sooner rather than later. For whatever reason, the the caribou populations are are really dropping. So I would uh Is that dee to wolves? Was that is that d to wolf? I I don't know if they if they know the answer. It's it's kind of like mule deer. Mule deer populations are are tanking throughout throughout the West, and they don't they don't know, they can't point to one concrete reason why. And it's the same with it's the same with caribou. Yeah. The numbers, the numbers are are uh way lower than when I started reading hunting magazines in the late 80s, 90s, when you could go up to Canada and shoot two caribou for you know fifteen hundred dollars. Now, now some of the caribou hunts uh they're they're they're a lot of money, and or the the herds are are so decimated you can't go there anymore.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:10

Yeah, the very first Hunt in the Country television show, uh Cuz and Toxie and I went and hunted the Ungava River in the central part of Canada. Uh the Ungava River herd. And at that time you could kill two, and they were just, I mean, these these outfitters were just flying folks in, and camps were full of people, and everybody's killing two. And you can't even hunt that herd anymore. Wow. Sure can't.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:39

That's a shame. Maybe I need to pick a different option. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:45

Go sooner than later. Yeah. And there's, yeah, that the but there's, you know, like in Newfoundland, there's the woodland caribou. In Alaska, there's a what is it, a barren ground car? There's quite a few different caribos. You should do that, Dudley. I'll give it a try. All right, David. We have thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

Thank you, guys. I appreciate your time. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:06

You ever listen to our podcast when you're out there? I'm going to do it more often now. Good answer. Yeah, we appreciate that. Yeah, we sure do. Well, look, you're doing uh I tell you what, we we uh we're impressed with what you do and your knowledge of all these things. It's interesting that there's somebody out there that's testing and trying and writing about all this stuff, and what a fun job you've got.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm very blessed to get uh to get paid to build gun magazines is is a dream come true. How about that?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:39

All right, guys. Carcy, we've enjoyed seeing you. Haven't you been? Thanks for dropping. Always good to be here. Yeah, we should come by more often. I'll try to. Whenever we have something with rifles, I can always tease you and get usually get you to come by.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:50

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:51

Yeah. Now, Carcy, you you're a uh private landowner. If you owned some land that touched some uh you know public land on the other side, would you be prone to let somebody trespass? Or how would you feel if somebody flew over in a helicopter and landed on you?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:07

We actually do border public land. The waterway, the Tennessee Time Big B waterway, when it was filled in 1980, backed a lot of uh water up on what was our property. The way the Corps of Engineers did it, we still own that ground that's underwater two inches or twenty feet underwater. We still own that. But you can come in and duck hunt um in a boat, that's fine. But if you get out of your boat and wade in the water, you're trespassing.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:49

You're not even allowed to tether your boat to something. That's right. Legally, but yeah. Navigable water.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:56

You know, if somebody wants to tie up to a snag or something, that's not any big deal. But if you I mean, my dad prosecuted, I don't know, a couple of dozen people probably over the years who would get out and pull their boat up on the land and and want to hunt, we're gonna have it. I mean, we I know one that we both walked up on is sitting there within five feet of a no trespassing sign. Don't get out of your boat. You know.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:26

Well, David, there there's issues in the south, there's issues in the west, I guess. It's it it's all over the place. But it sounds like you have really kind of made it a mission with your life to try to figure out how to access some of these places and show others how to how to do it to and make some of this land more accessible.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:45

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's uh everything changed for me when I had kids. Then I I didn't have the free time to spend away from away from home and going deep in the wilderness. So I I tried to maximize the uh the the places close by that would give me good hunts in a shorter amount of time. And and I found that that the the landlock public land is is uh impossible to beat for that. It's a great adventure. It's it's not for everyone, because you can you can have some serious confrontations, but uh, but it's public land. At the end of the day, you know, I've got just as much right to be there as the people who walk over from their ranch. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:19

There you go. All right, David Fabian, have you got social media? Can guys follow you, or what do you want them to do? Do you want them to go to gunsandamo.com or what what's the best thing to do here?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:29

Yeah, yeah. Uh we've got we've got websites, shooting times, guns and ammo, uh, a bunch of stuff there, but I have no social media myself. I've I've uh I've stayed clean this many years, and I'm gonna I'm gonna keep on. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:43

Yeah, that is amazing. You know, I'd like to get David down here uh into the swamps of Mississippi, Carcy, and let him have about a 300-pound boar hog uh out there at about whatever in some cane with his two with his 223. I wonder where he would try to shoot that animal.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:02

Many times, hopefully. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:04

Uh send him some peanuts and invite him. Yeah. So David, where if you had a big boy, have you hunted pigs?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:10

You know, I've I've done a handful of of uh on the ground pig hunts, but but the vast majority of the ones I've killed has been from uh from a helicopter, oddly enough. Uh I've done I've done some uh some aerial aerial hog hunting and coyote hunting, so I've killed a lot that way. And and that's what we use, two, two, three. Cheap stuff, and the the biggest, the biggest pig I've ever seen was was dropped with just two rounds of a two, two, three. Huge pig. Yeah and we shot it from way high up to see how the bullet would do, and it was very anticlimactic. It just died.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:42

There you go. What are you like?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:44

It just died.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:46

I mean, I've lost I've lost a couple of big pigs, and I just it just frustrates me shooting them in the I've I've I've got to learn to shoot them in the neck. Those big boars, Carcy is what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:56

I mean, I've um I've killed pigs with a 22 long rifle. Oh, yeah. I've killed a bunch. You just got to put it in the right place. Pistol. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:05

Well, I'm talking about those big, big boars with those muscled up shoulders and that shield that they have.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:12

I would not, I would not shoot a pig with a 22 long rifle in the shoulder. Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:18

All right, David, we may uh shoot you an invite. We'd love to have a chance to hunt with you. That sounds like fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:25

And if you guys ever want to come up here for a for a flying adventure, you know how to get a hold of me. It sounds like it would be an adventure, truly.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:32

It's an adventure. Yeah. All right, why don't you say goodbye, Dudley? Goodbye, Dudley.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:37

Get us out of here, Richie.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:39

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Game Keeper Podcast. And be sure to tune in again. Subscribe to Game Keeper Farming for Wildlife magazine, and don't miss the Monte Oak Properties Fistful of Dirt podcast with my good buddy, Ronnie Cud Strickland.