EP: 468 | Aquatic Weed Management with Dr. Jay Shelton

On this episode we’re joined by Dr. Jay Shelton of UGA to discuss pond management and especially aquatic weed problems. Jay is an obsessed fisherman and extremely knowledgeable  about pond weeds and how to control them. Is there anything more frustrating when owning a pond than having weeds that prevent you from being able to fish it? We talk about construction, permits, revamping old ponds, chemicals, how to apply, grass carp and how these crazy weeds get into ponds. It’s a great conversation and if you have a pond or just enjoy fishing, you’ll benefit from his years of hands on expertize. 

Listen, Learn and Enjoy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm Jeff Foxworthy and welcome to Gamekeeper Podcast. If you want to learn more about farming for wildlife and habitat management, everybody, you are in the right place. Join the Gamekeeper crew direct from Office Yoke Land Enhancement Studio as they discuss the latest wildlife and habitat management practices. News and of course honey. There's no telling what you'll learn, but I'm going to tell you. I bet it's interesting. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

We're live in three, two, one.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

All right, guys. I'm so excited to get this one started and dive into some of this information. Dive into some of this.

SPEAKER_07 0:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

It is. Look, we all can you imagine, Lanny? I mean, think back, you've been fishing a time or two. A time, yeah. But there imagine, you know, pushing away from the dock in your boat, and you the there's mist coming up off the water, and you you you ease out to the fish on topwater? You tie that lock. You cast that thing out and it hangs up in some grass. Every time you retrieve it in it, it's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

So weeds in a pond are it's not about the trophy, though, Bobby. The weeds can destroy the population and everything, too. Yeah. And there can be good weeds, too.

SPEAKER_06 1:14

I was gonna I was wondering if can there be good aquatic weeds?

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Everything in moderation. Yeah. So look, let me get our guest uh introduced. I'm just really excited. We're talking about fish today. We are talking about fish ponds. All right. Fish and weeds and whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Whatever, raccoons and coats, as far as I'm concerned, when you start bringing up weeds. Aquatic weeds. Everything I try to do, nature comes after me.

SPEAKER_04 1:39

Yeah, you do. Let me get our get guests introduced. We've got so we've got Dr. Jay Shelton from the University of Georgia. All right. Yeah, and let me read this about Jay. So Dr. Jay Shelton is a fishery scientist and an aquatic resource specialist with over 40 years of experience in fisheries conservation, lake management, and watershed stewardship across the southeastern United States. Dr. Shelton built a career blending applied science with practical resource management as a faculty member at the University of Georgia's Warrenell School of Forestry. Land, this guy knows his stuff. And as much as he does that, and he's also a part of the uh fish sport pond management team over there. You remember we had Les Agar here? What a great guy. And I mean, it makes you want to live in Georgia and have them manage your pond, but they're they're so good. But not only that, he is one of the best fishermen I've ever been around. This guy knows what he's doing, he can catch them, and he does it all on a fly rod. Jay, welcome.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Wow. Thanks. It's all very clear now, Lenny. Yeah. It's all very clear.

SPEAKER_06 2:49

Bobby wants you to take him into that. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Well, this it is it is refreshing to see that he's not manipulating somebody with turkey on land for a change. And it's actually something like fishing, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:01

And he's got kind of an Ernest Hemingway look about him, doesn't he? No doubt about it.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Here's things about novels, too. I forgot that.

SPEAKER_04 3:07

Yeah. Jay, we're so glad to have you.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I have a funny story about that from a uh a visit to Cuba many, many years ago.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Wow. That had to be amazing.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

Well, you know, you brought it up. We got to hear it.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Well, you know, uh, they revere Hemingway in Cuba, and um I had this beard when I went down there, and as I walk through the streets, of course, they know an American, you know, from a mile away. And um several times as I was walking through the streets, somebody would just say, Hey, Hemingway and call me over, you know, and then of course they would uh they're very, very friendly, warm, welcoming people. Um, and I really enjoyed my visit, but the beard got that same reaction down there in Havana.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

Oh, wow, that's great. Were you down there fishing?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I was actually uh went to give a presentation, believe it or not, at a meeting about aquatic ecology, and then of course I had to take a few days to go fly fishing down in a place called um Parque Nacional de Cienega de Zapata.

SPEAKER_06 4:12

Wow, which is the largest impressive, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Well, it's the largest um ecological reserve in the Caribbean, huh? Pristine coral reefs, pristine mangroves, and lots of bone fish.

SPEAKER_06 4:26

Where is this? Can you say that again?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Well, I can try.

SPEAKER_06 4:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Parte Nacional, okay, national park, yeah, the Siánica de Zapata, which just means shoe swamp national park.

SPEAKER_06 4:40

Okay, and it's in Cuba.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

And it is. It's actually um uh down on the coast in Cuba on the Bay of Pigs. Oh, yeah, yeah. And uh the tarpon fishing and the bone fishing permit, it's it's just a an absolute uh amazing treasure.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

Oh we need to go there. We do, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

I think you should.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

I don't imagine you can just haul your little bass boat down the double, drop in a giant boat, hit 90 miles, and here we go.

SPEAKER_04 5:05

Well, uh, you know, it correct me if uh if this isn't true, but I've heard that they grow some really big largemouth bass in Cuba as well. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

They do. Um, the interesting thing is that um, you know, there's not a lot of management to those fisheries.

SPEAKER_07 5:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Uh and and in most cases, uh unmanaged fisheries don't stay at the top, at the peak forever.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

And there have been some declines as a result of the inability to manage, and that includes some of the things we're going to talk about today, including aquatic plant management.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

How about that? Do y'all does anybody know Hemingway's the name of Hemingway's boat? I did at one time. I think I might have heard this once. Your son Neil would know if I if I asked this question. Richie, do you know? No, sir.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

I didn't expect that you would. Do I think that's what I think?

SPEAKER_04 5:59

What about you, Jay?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, if you hadn't asked me, I would have known it just like that.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

I said the same thing. Isn't it called the Pilar?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

I think it is the Pilar. That was the P-I-L-L-A-R.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

I think there's only one one L. One L. What's that mean? And his, he has he's famous for having cats down there with five toes. Have you ever heard that? A polydactyl cat. Well, whatever.

SPEAKER_06 6:20

Look at Tud. Look at Billy. You know, he's into cats. I love cats.

SPEAKER_05 6:27

I've owned a few. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

He has.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

It's like a it's like a scary movie over there with cats. So I got to fish with Jay a few, maybe a month or six weeks ago. Shocker. A flint rubber. Just real impressed with and I've I you know I've met him, I've known him for a while.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

And um through What are you suckering up to him for the trip of the future?

SPEAKER_04 6:47

Where are you headed? Well, what I'm what I'm saying is a lot of times we have guests in from universities and they may be super knowledgeable about their subject matter, but they don't get out there and do it a lot. And I think he's just the opposite. I think they have to drag him back to work to get him to get anything done because he's off fishing on them.

SPEAKER_06 7:03

Yeah, I and it's interesting. Do you think, I mean, do you think that uh you you being such a passionate fisherman makes you, you know, a better aquatic person, or do you think vice versa, the the the your education has made them you a better fisherman?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

No, I got I truly believe it starts with having that passion. And um, you know, as a scientist, I've told a lot of people that um if you're gonna teach science, you need to do science.

SPEAKER_06 7:28

Ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

And I think having that uh in the field, that applied background is really critical. And we we stress that here in our program uh very very much.

SPEAKER_06 7:36

Yeah, I love the applied science part of it for sure.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

Let's do this. Let's let Dudley ask him some rapid fires, get to know him a little bit, and then we can get into all these questions about pond weeds. So uh the rapid fire is brought to us by our friends at Nutrient Ag Solutions. And yes, talked to Twinkie uh yesterday, matter of fact.

SPEAKER_06 7:54

Yeah, and you know, got some chemical recommendations from him?

SPEAKER_04 7:57

That'd be a good place to get some of these communities. Sure would talk about.

SPEAKER_05 8:00

So they're good folks.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

All right, Doug.

SPEAKER_05 8:02

All right, Dr. J, we're gonna ask you a bunch of questions uh in rapid fire, trying to get to know you better. So, are you ready? I'm ready. Where is your favorite place to get boo dan?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Ooh. Uh Slydale, Louisiana.

SPEAKER_05 8:19

Okay. Uh, would you rather have a vine ripe tomato sandwich or fried green tomatoes?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Vine ripe every time.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

Uh trophy bluegill in a skillet or a trophy bass released?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

I gotta go with the bluegill in the skillet.

SPEAKER_06 8:38

All right.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

There we go. There we go. He's human.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

I love it.

SPEAKER_05 8:43

What is your favorite species from, and I may mispronounce this, from the Lipomus genus?

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Um, wow, that's a tough one. I really like shell cracker. I really like shellcracker a lot.

SPEAKER_05 8:58

Okay, well, that answers a future question. Favorite species of Micropterus?

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Gotta be gotta be show bass.

SPEAKER_05 9:06

Okay. Uh fried crappie fillets, or I prefer them whole.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Uh I I pr I'm kind of old school. I like them whole. Same.

SPEAKER_05 9:18

Have you ever fished with a bamboo fly rod? Yes, I have. Uh would you rather creek fish or river fish or fish in a big reservoir?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Uh I like river fishing.

SPEAKER_05 9:31

Okay. Uh do you say goggoli or warmouth?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

I say warmouth.

SPEAKER_05 9:37

Uh red ear, chink a pen, or shell cracker.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

I say shell cracker.

SPEAKER_05 9:43

Um, if a turkey gobbles, do you keep fishing or do you start putting on camo?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

These days I start putting on camo. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

There we go. All right. Coming over from the look at the light. Look at the light.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

Brown, brown trout. A mistake or I like them? That's a tough question.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

A mistake that I like.

SPEAKER_05 10:10

Okay. Uh, smallmouth or largemouth?

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Definitely smallmouth.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

Uh if you go to South Louisiana, do you prefer inshore, offshore, or fresh water?

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Inshore.

SPEAKER_05 10:23

Yeah. Um, and if you could be anywhere fishing right now, late July, early August, where would you be and what are you targeting?

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Man, I think I'd go right back out there to Idaho and target those cutthroat trout.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

Good answers.

SPEAKER_06 10:39

Awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:40

Good answers. Look at Bobby Lightning. Yeah, I'm kind of surprised on that on releasing a big largemouth. I thought that you well, you have to pick, so. See there, Bobby. It's like there's life beyond the trophy of control. Yeah, you know, some people I hear it said that people a lot of men's downfall are honeys and money. And Lanny, I think mine are fish and bucks and ducks. Ducks. Yeah. I mean, if the devil wanted to get me, all he's got to do is make a big dude show up on my camera.

SPEAKER_06 11:14

Devil may done got you. Yeah, they got you already. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 11:17

All right. All right, let's get let's get serious. Jay, thank you for uh those great answers. Toxie, you want to lead off with one of your questions?

SPEAKER_03 11:24

You I know you had some good ones. I've got several ponds and lakes and stuff. And so this one is a very pretty for us, standard's pretty big, it's like 42 acres. However, it's like where an old tram line, it was very economical. An old tram line was crossing this big, wide, flat bottom. The dam's probably 500 yards. But in short, the deepest part of this lake is probably nine feet. And that's because they actually excavated a little bit there. Um, and so I would say 30 acres of it is more than two feet deep. So there's a pretty good shallow spot, even though it's somewhat fishy. Anyway, the reason I brought all that background into it is we've had a terrible problem as of late. Uh with we did have uh we had nutrient rats really bad. We had to rebuild some of it. Um, but again, for that size water is very economical because again, you know, it's a low dam. We rebuilt that and then we had had a bad lotus problem with the big lily pad looking things, and so um it covered the whole lake. And so when we drained it and filled it back up and restocked it three years ago, um it um had an issue with them. But then we got some of the hydrilla, and it's a terrible problem. It has covered the entire 42 acres, and I know part of that is because it's not super deep anywhere. So uh we had um you know, we had uh uh treatment last year, and it would only do like 10 acres at a time because it could cause too much damage, and we knocked it back pretty good, but and then we stocked extra grass carp, but it wasn't enough. So I just had my point in bringing it up. I just had to make a decision do we keep treating more or just really pour the grass carp to it? That's expensive, but quite honestly, that could be a long-term, I gotta have something to knock it back once we do. So what I decided to do is get that big, much larger group of grass carp, and it's fairly expensive, one-time deal, and a partial treatment enough to give them a little head start.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

And so, yeah, in general, you know, you have any advice based on you might have a few more questions, uh, what I should be doing, and and try to get it back under control in the future.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

The things that um we tend to have the most problems with are those exotics, those invasives. And, you know, there's a lot of good reasons for that, but the the best uh control uh that we found comes from something that we call, I'm glad you mentioned it because it's something I I kind of brought it up with Bobby before the show, talking about IPM, integrated pest management, which, you know, that's not something exclusive to aquatic plant problems. It's it's it's really an issue with all sorts of pests in natural resources management. And the integrated part, you're already doing in that you're you're kind of doing two different things at once. You're using biological control with the grass carp stockings, and then chemical control uh with the herbicide applications. And you already alluded to one of the third things, which is is really more uh environmental control and physical control, because you know that that water is shallow. And the the bottom line is uh if you've got nutrients, if you've got sunlight, um and and the temperature is right, something is gonna grow in your lake or your pond. Something's gonna grow. What you hope is that it's gonna be something that's beneficial in terms of fish production and not detrimental in terms of fishing. And those two things are not the same.

SPEAKER_06 15:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

You know, you can have a very productive body of water and just have some really poor fishermen that just can't catch the fish. And so we have to think about both of those things. And and with respect to hydrilla, it uh unfortunately it's it's it's uh it has a negative effect on both. Yeah, hydrilla is one of the fastest growing plants on earth. I believe it. Almost like I believe you can watch it grow, yeah, and it um has the the capacity to for uh for uh growing from tubers, which it produces, and those tubers get down into the sediment in the bottom, and they basically create this seed bed that just continues to accumulate more and more and more, and it can get very, very dense. So um it's it's problematic from a number of perspectives. Uh, you know, and in recent years we've discovered that it it also harbors certain types of uh of blue-green algae uh that that actually have um the capacity to cause problems with um with birds through the through a disease called avian vacuolar myelinopathy. It's killing bald eagles and it's having effects on other aquatic birds. So hydrilla is a real problem. And um it is good that grass carp will eat it, they actually like it, and so increasing your density of grass carp is definitely a great idea, right? Uh, you know, you kind of got an uphill battle because of the shallow depth, but there are some good, effective herbicide uh measures uh that we have found a pretty good bit of success with. The reality, though, unfortunately, is that you're kind of in this, you're gonna be in this for the long term. Yes, it's not like there's a silver bullet and you can come out and hit it once and everything's gonna be great. Getting those grass scarp densities up, and I we haven't talked about numbers, you know, we could talk some about that. And then just confirming that you're using the best uh uh herbicide regime because we've got some newer products that are are really, really effective. And then also we're learning a lot about um application methods and and what we call uh adjuvants, right? And I know y'all y'all use adjuvants with your you know with your terrestrial herbicide applications, but some things that can help to increase the efficiency of our herbicide use. So all of those things kind of roll into this concept of integrated pest management, IPM. And and the uh, you know, it's funny because uh I kind of it's very, very difficult to make an over-the-phone or in this case, uh, you know, during the podcast prescription for a specific pond. You've got a I've got uh uh actually have compiled a big list of questions that I always want to make sure I ask to make sure I've covered all the bases before I even make a recommendation. But that's kind of really how it all starts is is to get that that background information and to um and a little bit of history. And it's really just like when you go to the veterinarian and you've got a problem with a with a dog, you know. Um you you rarely ever get a veterinarian to give you a diagnosis over the telephone. You know, they say, well, you bring it in. And it's it's sort of like that with uh with lakes because everyone does behave different. For example, the hydrology of that system, you know, you kind of described it as real be a being a low place with a low dam. And um the amount of water that flows through it matters in terms of what's gonna happen there, uh, in term in terms of your your uh aquatic plant management. What happens to those nutrients that enter in that water also uh matters, and it's not always not always the same. So I wish you know I wish it were simpler and we had quick and easy answers, but you know, it's sort of got to be on a case-by-case basis. Um, we've had good good success with hydrilla, uh, but it's it's usually takes several years. And you know, when I say we, uh we're battling it on public lands. Uh, for example, many of our reservoirs have got big hydrilla problems. We got one just down the road from me, uh Lake Oconee. Hydrilla is a new arrival in Lake Oconee, and the rate at which it's advancing is extraordinary. Um, there's one other thing I'll mention real quick, and we could maybe revisit this a little bit later. And but but you're right in that not all aquatic plants are weeds, not all aquatic plants are bad. And one of the things that some of the state agencies are now trying to do is to establish beneficial native aquatic plants to take up some of those nutrients and to be placeholders to prevent those invasive exotics from coming in and uh and taking over more and more space. So that that's another aspect of uh of aquatic plant management and of integrated pest management is say you go in and you take out the the hydrilla in a given area. In some cases, it's beneficial to plant something there that you know will not become invasive and and overrun the whole lake, but will take up some of that space, take up some of those nutrients, and help to kind of battle against the invasion.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

So, on uh on average, what how many grass carp and what size should they be would you recommend for a situation like that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

So we make those recommendations uh based on a few things. And uh, you know, uh y'all y'all gotta help this is this Mississippi. Do y'all do sterile triploid grass carp only, or y'all can go with diploid carp?

SPEAKER_03 22:42

I think we've been to doing the sterile ones only, but I haven't asked that question, you know. They come at these come out of Alabama actually, when the lake comes in Alabama.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

So okay. Yeah, so um we make those uh recommendations based on a few things. One of them is, and I've kind of got another list, I got a lot of lists, uh, but one of them is the uh feeding preference for grass carp for different uh species of aquatic plants. The good news that hydrilla is pretty high on the list. That means we usually can use fewer grass carp per acre. The bad news is because hydrilla grows so fast, it almost can overcome that. So um, and then the other part is the the size of the fish uh is important in that smaller grass carp have a higher metabolism and they eat more per day for their body weight than a larger fish. And what that means is you kind of only got usually maybe five to seven years before those fish get so big that they're just not really doing you much good anymore and it's time to stock more. So smaller fish are going to eat more eat relative to their body weight. But at the same time, if you've got a good healthy bass population in that lake, a grass carp's kind of like a it's kind. Of like a sausage. You know, it's just real e it doesn't have any sharp fins, it's real easy to eat, and and predators like largemouth bass will eat them, and and can can eat a predator like a largemouth bass can eat a grass carp that's about half its length. Right. See, so if you've got a 24-inch bass in there, it'll be eating a 12-inch grass carp, and and that's about the biggest grass carp you can afford.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

So that's another consideration there in terms of the size. Um, so what we do is we think about for a given aquatic plant, what is the maximum expected acreage of infestation? In your case, the maximum expected is wall to wall across the whole pond, right? Because you really don't have any water deep enough to inhibit hydrilla from growing. It's been known to grow in 60 feet of water. Okay. You got nothing close to that.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

I definitely do not. I don't know if anybody does.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

So the whole pond is what we've really got to think about controlling. Yeah. And that means your stocking rates are probably going to be in that neighborhood of 15 or maybe even a few more per acre for the whole pond.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

It is. So here's what we did. Um, so the very tip of that lake uh in the summer especially draws down. So we figured on about 35 acres, 36 acres of it. And we did a stocking of 10 per acre at first, and then um, and then it just it took over the lake again. I think they're doing a little bit to it, but not so this second time, instead of the continuing on the herbicide trip, we're gonna do partial to help them. We're going with 20 more per acre. Yeah. And that's diluted a little, but saying, that's a pretty you know what I'm hoping is that, and like last year it it I thought it was almost went away with the winter, but it just, you know, it just dies with the cold weather. And as you told me, it's gonna come right back. It did come right back. Hopefully, when it starts from kind of ground zero again, I gotta have so many carps they can keep the grass mode, literally. You know, right.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Is that sound right? And I so I think that with that higher density, over time, you'll start to get a handle on them. Um, the other thing to think about is, and we didn't talk about herbicides yet. Do you remember what herbicide recipe they used?

SPEAKER_03 26:10

You know, um I tried to look it up right before we got on. Okay, but it was it was a combination of two things, or three things, actually, because I guess adjuvant too. But then uh is there a uh what's the is it starts with a P, it's a form of diquat, maybe that starts with a P, what's it called? Procelicore? I think it was procelicore and then cutrin, maybe. Does that sound like a copper compound?

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Right, yeah. So so just in a general sense for aquatic plant management, we yes, and this is true, of course, for uh all herbicide applications. We talk about the systemic or the long-lasting herbicides versus the contact herbicides, right? And there are some that are good and effective on uh hydrilla of both. And so, for example, uh diquat uh copper compounds or contact herbicides, you know, they kill what they touch, but then they don't have any residual. Right. There's some other things like fluoridone, which uh is an active ingredient that does have a long residual, especially when you don't have a lot of water turnover. And sometimes with hydrilla, it's prudent to try to try a combination of both of those things. Right. Um, and then the other thing to consider is you've got to get some kind of material down there to those tubers in the bottom, which oftentimes means choosing a granular or slow release product over a liquid, fast release product. So there's a lot that kind of rolls into that.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Yeah, and I just want to, I don't want to at least try to be conscious of something that would be a harmful chemical to the fish or eating the fish and stuff, too.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yeah, and and and so we have, you know, the the good news is we do have a toolbox of aquatic herbicides that we know from a whole lot of very uh stringent testing uh are approved for food fish uses as long as we follow the label. Right. Uh, but it's not nearly as many because we're putting them in water, there are much, much more stringent uh restrictions. Uh not nearly as many as as terrest as as we have terrestrial choices. Sure. And but but there are some, and and the everything that I'm gonna mention to you is gonna be labeled for food fish.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

So I feel let me say before I want to before you say this, just get it straight in my mind. So coming out of winter is gonna be my best chance to stay on top of it again. That's absolutely right. Uh and I I feel like we're gonna get good survival on the grass carp. We're doing it like next week. It's so thick, it's gonna be hard for them to chase them down much. And so uh they grow really fast with that kind of food too, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

They do. Yes, they do, and in a way, uh stocking them when you have that high density of hydrilla makes it less likely that you're gonna get a lot of predation from your from your your predators. It gives them more places to hide, and they'll get into those dense hydrilla beds and just start working on it right away. It's just that they've got an uphill battle. They do starting, you know, in the winter, they tend to get pretty active. There, you know, the the interesting thing about grass carp is they're native to big rivers in Russia and in China. That's where they originally came from. And that's one of the reasons we want to use triploid grass carp in many states, is that we don't want them to naturally reproduce or escape. So the triploid option takes care of all that. It's a wonderful thing, it's a really, really effective thing. And um so we kind of have control over the numbers, but um the uh those fish in those big rivers, they're adapted to being b becoming um active in relatively cool early spring.

unknown 29:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

And sometimes that's the advantage that they get uh because hydrilla uh you the the grass carp can start feeding as soon as that hydrilla starts to emerge from those tubers, right? And you and that's when you really uh tend to see a good difference.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

So that that uh combination that he sprayed for me last year, it was real effective, you know, at the point, you know, so whatever a week or two afterwards. I mean it's you know, it was he did like 10 acres twice, so we did a half of it. And I probably should have gone further, not knowing well enough. So I felt like doing when we do the grass carp, I was going to let them treat another 10 acres this year, and that would help them get a little bit of a head start. And what I was getting to ask you one last question is like it seems like if there's a good safe grain or even if it's a little pricey or something, it would be worth it to have that sitting on the bottom when it starts to warm up next spring.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

When when um when dealing with hydrilla, uh in the this under the circumstances that you just described, including the fact that the pond is relatively shallow, I do think that you're gonna benefit from paying more money, but using that systemic, which has a much longer residual. In some cases, we we have gotten reports that the residual on that systemic product is a year and a half. Wow. Now, if you give if if that pond's pretty clean for a year and a half, that really gives those grass carp a chance to to get the jump on everything. And as it comes up out of the ground, they start cropping it off. And and that that so I you're absolutely right about that.

SPEAKER_06 31:24

Is there any, I mean, it sounds like you're trying to control it before it emerges, pre-emerge. Is there anything that you could apply that would kill the tubers?

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yes. The the um the systemics like like that fluoridone product in the granular slow release form will kill the will kill the tubers. Uh-huh. Um, I'll talk about active ingredients mostly because there's so many, um, you know, there's there's just so many uh uh products on the market now, but that fluoridone does have uh uh efficacy on those tubers. It does.

SPEAKER_04 31:55

That sounds like the route to go. So how do you think the hydrilla got in there in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yeah. Well, you don't have any waterfowl on that uh lake, do you? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

A lot of Camarch, too. No, different. It had a lot of willows in the shallow end when we moved it back, and so um about gosh, six or seven years ago or more, a tornado came through there. In fact, it was longer than that because that's back when tornadoes came through Alabama, so it's been like 15 years ago. Um, and one came through there and touched down, just right, knocked a shooting house we had down, it was up, elevated, some pine trees, but it didn't do a lot of damage on the property on each side of that lake going across there. There's pines, y'all been there. But it touched down in the lake and it destroyed those um Willows. Willows. A lot of them kind of died back. Well, there were still, you know, maybe many, many hundreds of them out there. And ever since that happened, we don't we don't see we barely see comorants anymore. And the catfish ponds are right next to my property there that there's lots of comarants on, but they quit using that lake when there was nowhere to perch on. No really, as y'all know, I've got the other lake back where the camp is. Yeah, and there's a bunch of cedars that stick up out of the water. Oh my gosh, and they are so bad. That's a whole different problem.

SPEAKER_04 33:17

Yeah, so you think Toxie should shoot these Camarants? Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 33:20

I can't, Bob. You're trying to set a trap for them. You're not gonna get an answer for uh other than no, you're not gonna get an answer from me on that.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

I just work on a lot of fish hatcheries, right up there and hunt the horn, man. Yeah, wow, right.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

But uh, but yeah, waterfowl are uh are one way. Uh also always think about what's upstream. Yeah, uh, if there's any potential source upstream, no, and it only takes one little sprig of hydrilla to get it to get it.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Oh, yeah, I'm sure it came in on birds. It's the only possible way, really.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

So, one more question about grass carp. If talk if there was a big rain event and water was going out the drain pipe or over the emergency spillway, would those grass carp take that as an opportunity to escape?

SPEAKER_01 34:02

It is uh you know, because they like flowing water. Uh, if you have um several inches of water flowing out and it doesn't have any kind of a guard on it, um there are some pretty good designs. I'd be happy to send y'all some some documents on that uh to make a uh uh a barrier to prevent those grass cart from leaving during during floods. Uh but it is they if if you give them the opportunity, they will leave. And so you definitely want to inspect your uh your both your uh uh whatever drain drains you got, and if you've got kind of an emergency runaround for for winter floods, uh that's a good place to put that barrier to prevent them from leaving.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

Yeah, they like to go. I didn't know that. I just learned that. So is there a like if you're a pond owner, is there a calendar that you could explain that might say, okay, in in in the spring, early spring, I need to do this. And that when the water hits 60, I need to fertilize. Is there a year-round calendar to help prov that a guy can be proactive and try to get ahead of some of these issues?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yes, there is. And and and I'm glad you put it that way because it's not just for aquatic weed problems, it's really a year-round calendar that that really kind of makes you think about a lake or a pond from an ecological perspective, which means it takes into account all of the physical and the chemical and the biological characteristics. Because a pond is very, very dynamic. And and so uh, you know, say we started in the winter when um metabolism is very low. Uh a lot of folks aren't gonna fish as much, be as active on the pond, looking, checking it around, you know, keeping their eyes on it in the winter, and that's for uh for good reason. Um, but there are certain things that from the overall pond management perspective as well as the aquatic plant management perspective that should be done in the winter, and that's kind of like you know, terrestrial agriculture. For example, if you're gonna lime a pond, winter's the time to do that. And you might think that liming a pond has no effect on um on the aquatic weed problem, but that's not true. You know, lime increases the availability of nutrients in a pond. And so if those nutrients are available, whenever it warms up, something's gonna grab those nutrients and start to grow. Ideally, in a pond, we want our bloom, you know, we want the beneficial microscopic algae to be the utilizers of those nutrients. But if it's not the the if it's not the bloom, then it it can very well be something else. And that something else can be whatever's down in the seed bed in the bottom of the pond. If the sunlight hits the bottom, starts to warm those sediment. And in the case of, you know, in Toxies Pond, he's got tubers down there, he's got that seed bed of hydrilla, that's that's what's gonna take off. So you got to keep that in mind. Um, and and and there's other things in about the winter is that's when we usually in the south we get our greatest amount of rainfall. So that's a time to be checking to make sure you're not losing your grass car. You know, and then as things start to warm up in the spring, the the metabolism, both of the plants and of all the animals, everything in the food chain, uh starts to pick up. And that's when we would like to start to see um that bloom established, you know, early down, you know, over your way, February and March, start checking your temperatures and start looking at the water and seeing if you're starting to see a little bit of a bloom, or if you cruise around and you're starting to see little green things sticking up out of the bottom. And if you are, the time to get them identified is early, early on, so that you can come up with some sort of a treatment uh uh schedule, whatever it might be, herbicides might be uh grass carp, might be other other uh options uh for certain types of uh plants. Uh but early detection is one of those keys to integrated pest management. And that means you need to be out there a lot. So you got to fish a lot. You know, you got to get out there and and be on the water and keep your eyes open uh and monitor uh the overall ecology of that pond. Then as you know, things really start warming up, you know, that 60 degree number is kind of when uh aquatic plant activity really gets high. It's also a number where the efficacy or the the um the herbicides that we apply tend to work better as when the water is above 60 degrees, and that has to do with the increased metabolic rate of the plants. So you get to above 60 degrees. Then as you kind of go through, you know, um spring, we can have turnover, we can have the water kind of mixing freely, but then as summer starts to take a hold, um, we is when we get that stratification that occurs, and that stratification in that pond can result in big differences in the surface water quality, the water quality down at the bottom. And of course, you can also get high, high rates of metabolism, which is when you need to be much more careful about adding, like when Toxie talked about being careful and only treating 10 acres rather than treating the whole pond. If you kill all the weeds in you know 40 acres of water all at once, yeah, in July or August, you're just basically asking for a fish kill resulting from oxygen depletion. So summer, you know, is kind of a tricky time, and you kind of got to think about that with respect to metabolic rates of the fish and of the plants. And then we get into fall, you know, things start to cool down cool down again, and the plant metabolism will kind of slow down a little bit. But we get into uh we actually get into a time when you're you're kind of back into that optimum temperature for certain types of treatments. Um, and um, and then you want to kind of be thinking towards what sorts of activities you might need to do in the offseason in the winter. So there really is a calendar that applies both to aquatic plant management as well as overall uh fisheries uh management uh in in successful ponds.

SPEAKER_06 40:03

You know, and keeping notes, I think, is uh Yeah, we talked about that with Mark, uh Jury, you know, and just on his on his white tail management, yeah, keeping records.

SPEAKER_04 40:12

Yeah, so Toxie's dad, Mr. Fox, had the what I thought was the best little system. He had he just went to the hardware store and bought a mailbox. Yeah. And he had it out there with a notebook in it. And when you finished fishing, you would write down what you what you caught, what you kept, and and it, you know, everybody I remember one time he he made a point. You know, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

If you want to keep fishing in this lake, you will keep every fish under twelve inches and under. No questions asked, and you will make sure somebody's eating that fish. If I find out, you'll never be back fishing. Plus, if I see you keeping fish, you shouldn't, or not signing that book in the mailbox. He was very He was serious about it. He was very calm and kind about how he would say it, but like he did a lot of things when he made a rule it stuck. So if he caught you, and that's honestly not too much to ask to build a fish. Not at all.

SPEAKER_04 41:01

Very in it inobtrusive, you know, just a little mailbox right there on a pier. So that's a good thing, guys.

SPEAKER_05 41:07

But that'd be a good place to put notes if you do find some weeds emerging or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah, just call this look, good Lord, call. You know, yeah. Our memories are not that good. No, you know, we don't know you know, and we think what you know, and so uh that's actually one of the fundamental principles of this integrated pest management is you you start by monitoring and then you try to identify the conditions, including what exactly what weeds you have, and then you evaluate and you kind of assess the circumstances, and then you implement some kind of plan, and then you reassess after you've implemented your plan to see if it's working, and then you kind of adjust or adapt or kind of modify your plan, and then you start that whole cycle again. Well, having those records, being able to go back and look through your notes and having those records is essential to making that work because it's, you know, I've y'all probably talked about adaptive management, which applies to all of natural resources, whether it's how many ducks, you know, set setting the limits on ducks or setting the the length limits on fish or whatever it is. Um, these systems are just so dynamic and they change over the years, they change over time, um, whether we like them to or not. And and unless we're actively managing, uh, we can't uh keep it in the sweet zone, you know, where we want it. And the only way to actively manage is to monitor and keep track of, keep keep records on on uh how things change.

SPEAKER_06 42:30

Lenny, you got a question? Yeah, just um, you know, would a properly fertilized pond with the right bloom, would that have mitigated some of his problems?

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Yeah, yeah, that that's a great question because that goes into another type of uh aquatic plant management we call preventive measurement, preventive uh methods. So if you but here's the problem in his circumstance, and and and one of the things I'd be curious about, I don't know how old that lake is, but we do know that all lakes tend to get shallower the older they get, actually. You know, and so if we remember the great days, you know, early on when a lake was first built, that that kind of honeymoon period, those first five to seven years, usually it's just amazing. You got rapid growth and everything, you know, and as time goes by, you get more and more shallow areas in that pond. Right. Well, well, the bloom ideally will prevent rooted aquatic plants from starting in three or more feet of water if you've really got a good bloom. Okay, but he's got so much shallow water that it gets tougher and tougher over the years.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Right, because it would the last place, the deeper the water, there wouldn't be any, but it kept on creeping in and creeping in and creeping from the other. Right. This water is very a beautiful bloom to it naturally, at least for now. Just beautiful. So, and again, the first time a long time ago that we stocked it, uh the third year, someone caught a nine-pound largemouth out of it. So it's it really can produce great fish in the room. So you did have a good bloom? Yeah, it it on its own has always had beautiful looking water.

SPEAKER_07 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Uh so that didn't the issue. The issue is like it's so nutrient dense to start with, which is awesome. But then once something takes off, it's like you know, throwing gas on a fire, too.

SPEAKER_06 44:22

Well, I think he you touched on what I was trying to get at was like, because I know you said it's about two and a half feet deep. So that's what I was wondering.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

No, no, some of it's nine or ten, actually.

SPEAKER_06 44:31

But then I mean your problems in that two and a half area, but he did mention that that fertilization works well for three feet and deeper.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Yeah. Yeah. If you didn't have that seed bed of hydrilla uh tubers down in the bottom, then I I would be saying fertilize starting you know February of next year. Right. The problem now is you've got that seed bed. So where are those nutrients going to go? Right. They're gonna grow more hydrilla.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

Well, he's that's what he's saying. Even if I have a beautiful thick bloom blocking the sun in three feet, it won't do you any good. Three feet or less. So I've got three feet or less of so much of it that it's just gonna all build up there, and which it does, you can watch it even along the bike, and I'm like, oh, it's only grow along the bike, and you come back a week later, and it's crazy how fast it grows.

SPEAKER_06 45:16

Could you is there like a way to like rake those tubers up out of the bottom?

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Not on 48. No, right.

SPEAKER_06 45:23

Bobby, that Bobby is what you need to get out of the way.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

I've seen the videos of them raking the hydrilla out with these big, huge stuff, but it's I can't imagine the weight you're pulling. They had like a big thing with a tractor pulling stuff out. Yeah, but that's just not practical on something that size. Yeah. So J.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Yeah, this brings up a an important point. We got to remember, uh, and we've got so many ponds in the southeast, you know, so many, so many ponds and lakes, um hundreds and hundreds of thousands. Uh, but the the the rate. at which they're being constructed is now very low. In other words, we've got a lot of old ponds.

SPEAKER_07 46:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

And they're they're a great resource, but they require a lot of maintenance. And really, if you what do you think some of the average ages of some of these lakes are? You know, these lakes are getting 60, 70, 80 years old. And nothing lasts forever. So we got to do pond maintenance. All that sediment that comes into those lakes, oftentimes we'll have to um drain that lake or get in there with a track hoe or something where we can deepen the edges. That's all a part of this because really what does a you know where you build a pond, it didn't exist before and what it evolves into ecological succession in a pond, it becomes a swamp. You know, it starts growing trees and it starts getting more and more shallow and eventually there's not that much water left. And that's just the natural process unless we um unless we actually uh do some active maintenance. You know, it'd be great if they lasted forever but they don't last forever without a lot of maintenance.

SPEAKER_04 47:03

Jay this particular pond he's talking about one time I fished it and it had just a few of those lotus lily pads. And you could throw a worm up on them and then land on it and when you crawled it off and dropped it in the water you could see your line just immediately twitched.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

And Bobby that's that's an important point. We're not saying that all and and y'all talked about this beginning you know that term weed in terrestrial management it's the same thing. A plant is a weed if it's growing where we don't want it or it's growing in excess that same plant could be great in another environment. And so we we we're never saying that we want scorched earth just a just a bowl with no aquatic vegetation. The problem is these invasive exotics just don't know when to quit. So if you if 10 to 20% coverage is ideal, you know, it didn't take but a few months for that hydrilla to outgrow 10 to 20% and the next thing it you know you've got wall to wall hydrilla. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 48:06

Help us understand you know those I guess your top three uh plants you would not want to see in a pond versus three that you don't mind seeing in a pond.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Okay. Yeah that's a great question. I'll I'll try. So and I may you know I may I may waffle a little bit about this on the three in each category but but it's a great start. Yeah um there's some that we that are just so noxious and we just don't have good controls over them. And the three that jump into my mind immediately one um is is a a combination of watermeal and duckweed both of which are floating plants that have a very waxy leathery coating and they have a an incredible reproductive rate. So watermeal and duckweed in a pond is just really really hard to control uh the second group that you know is is kind of emerging as more and more of a problem even though it's always been an issue there are certain filamentous algae. Yeah and amongst those filamentous algae two of the worst ones that we struggle with right now a lot in Georgia are Pithofyra and Lingbia. Right. Those two are really really tough and just really just really really invasive and and hard to hard to get under under control. And um and then we could I you know hydrilla is a good one to pick. It's not as big of an issue for us here in in private waters in Georgia. It's been a big one in in reservoirs um but but it it uh it's because it's so rap it grows so rapidly it would be a good uh third one that we it's just a real no no we see hydrilla we need to get onto it immediately yeah and not waste any time otherwise it it it it becomes really good so those are three I can't imagine how it would just destroy a smaller pond yeah yeah I mean it would just it would just completely choke it down you know I was expecting skunkweed to work its way into that or that chara yeah well interestingly enough we've got because because uh skunkweed is a um is an algae and it's not a blue green algae we've got pretty good herbicide controls and believe it or not grass carp like it yeah so that combination that that integrated approach of grass carp and some of the um actually generally they're contact herbicides a good uh tank mix of copper and diquat with the right surfactant can really really do a good job if you start early on the on the Cara and then coming back in uh and and putting the grass carp out there tends to do a good job but be ready because there's worse things that can pop back up after the after after you you get that under control. And that's when you want to start fertilizing. After you get that under control and you don't see any evidence of it in the spring that's when you come back and start to re-establish that bloom. So that that's not in my top list. But now then I'm glad you asked for the three good ones. Yeah. Because more and more we are encouraging people to consider uh actually establishing beneficial aquatic plants in their ponds. And the the ones that I really love there um and uh uh water willow is a beautiful plant and it's one that tends to do really really well and it provides great habitat and it never becomes invasive. Another really good one is pickerel weed. Yeah uh you know that's a that's one that does it if it does start to kind of creep out a little more than we want it to and become invasive it's one that's pretty easy to get back under you know get back under control. And then then it's you know the I kind of think about the the other options in terms of what the most critical thing you're trying to uh uh achieve is um for example there's some things that are really beautiful aesthetically really beautiful that people really like to see you know um um cattails blue flag iris and and and um um uh a cardinal flower are beautiful uh and they'll never become invasive but but the other thing is um there's there are more hardy plants that will uh tend to if you if you're worried for example about sediment transport into the pond uh more hardy plants that will prevent that sediment kind of act as more of a solid buffer uh some of the sedges and the rushes are really good for that um I like to establish some some low-growing uh uh bush type uh uh woody plants things like button bush around the edge of a pond it has some this particular pond does have some button wood left yeah so so uh so doing that has a lot of benefits one of the things that it if you've got that nice riparian buffer it tends to to absorb some of those nutrients and sediment before they make it into the pond and that means there's less there for the innoxious invasive exotics like the hydrilla yeah and your pond probably wouldn't fill in as quick I would think that's right that's right are all those natives water willow pickerel weed um blue flag iris I know sages in Russia's are aren't they yeah we actually grew American water willow at the nursery for a little while is that what we're calling bass grass yes ah we need to get back on that yeah that was a really good stuff bass grass we get Bobby to endorse it man it'd be water well I I'd love to see it I it's it's a little tricky it's it's interesting because we've started to see good success on re-establishing water willow in some of our reservoirs here in Georgia and man looking out there and seeing that water willow it's just a it's a beautiful sight and the and the fish utilization of those areas how deep a water will it grow in if a if it's pretty clear water I've seen it in uh about five feet of water but very rarely very rarely so two feet it but then no problem in two feet yeah we need that's what we gotta fill it up yeah we might have to try some of that so back uh back it up a little bit so a lot of people have asked me over the time about the the moss you know the pond moss you know yeah and uh you mentioned filamentous and and not but I remember getting and I maybe in Barry told me this but somebody's like just in general there's I know there's a lot of varieties but I I remember them telling them and I've told them and you could probably update that with some new varieties but go get your handful of it and squish it down and if it just like runs out between your fingers kind of like jello you don't have a big problem.

SPEAKER_03 58:31

And I know a lot that I've seen before especially where you have cattle that's like that but if you squish it down your hand it's like a ball of cotton that's an issue.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

Is that kind of a general rule of thumb yeah you know it's funny you mentioned Barry Smith you I don't know if everybody knows this Bobby does but you know uh Barry was still chief of fisheries when I worked at Auburn okay wow yeah so we go we went way way back I got chill bumps that guy we love that guy so much you know to those days and and you know there was a group of folks there's a group of of folks there at Auburn and another really really special one was David Bain and and Dr. Bain taught me aquatic plant management okay everything I know he taught me and he said you know when this class is over uh you'll be able to take your pesticide applicators test no problem and I did and I I may have been the first person to make a hundred on it taught you everything you know that's kind of like uh Lenny is to Bobby oh yeah I still don't know anything wow that's what a what an analogy yeah but but um but what you just said about that that and of course you know it's moss is the typical right you know generic term that we're talking about but what we're really talking about are certain types of filamentous algae and but in that great big group of filamentous algae is the the blue green algae the cyanobacteria and the ones that I mentioned the pathophoras you know the lingbias those are in that noxious group those are in that problem group and for those algae when you pick it up you you it won't go through your fingers it won't squeeze through your fingers you're gonna pick up a great big old I'm about to go treat some tomorrow morning Matt it's heavy yeah it's it is it's a big heavy nasty floating and when you squeeze it it does feel kind of like wet wool yeah exactly but the the the thing is that you still need to identify it and and and actually it requires a microscope to identify because for example the treatment's not exactly going to be the same for pathophora as it is for Lingbia. Wow the other unfortunate thing is these people these things have been around for a really really long time some of them believe it or not have developed some herbicide resistance I was going to ask about that I know y'all deal you know you deal with that in row crops and and it's just it's it's actually starting to happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:50

More the case for those carp too because I guarantee they hadn't got carp resistance going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Is that from people not spraying the right solution uh playing spraying too weak or applying it's from not following the label yeah it's it's it's it's that's that's right it's it's kind of like the whole problem we have with antibiotics I was going to say that that same thing yep don't finish the don't finish your course that's right you guys and so um we and you know the on the positive side of things we do have a few new tools in the toolbox a few herbicides that were not available you know even 15 years ago but we're kind of trying to fine-tune how to use those and we're starting to see some new y'all mentioned Procelicor and that's a newer a much a newer formulation that's coming on the market and then the use like I mentioned earlier the use of these adjuvants um you know for example certain herbicides work better at a certain water pH so we might add an adjuvant to to buffer the water pH uh these these filamentous algae that we've been talking about here tend to have a mucilaginous sheath they kind of got their own slime coat and some uh uh uh some adjuvants will kind of penetrate that slime coat and give you better uh efficacy for your herbicide and so in addition to getting some newer herbicides understanding how to use these additives uh to make the you know to get the the most bang for your buck is also really really important interesting so uh Jay you mentioned about uh to apply some of these herbicides that you the 60 degrees seemed like the magic point there to to start is there an upper end of that window it can be there is what what would that be so and and you know it's funny because it makes me it makes me laugh because I gave so many students the same answer to questions for so many years and I finally just said you know the answer to every question in natural resource management is it depends. Yeah we've where have we heard that before wow and so um you know there are um circumstances where uh if we're trying to tell somebody what to do on their own property we kind of tend to be very cautious and very very uh conservative in terms of what we we would recommend so when temperatures start to get into the 85 degree or or or more uh water temperatures uh we we we would uh you know the whole don't try this at home thing that's when we tell homeowners you know start to be really careful we're you know i'm I mentioned treating tomorrow and our water temperature is really hot right now um and uh I'm not gonna say there's no risk but uh you know having done it for 40 years that there's there's a there's probably a lot of things that uh you know somebody who's who's got that experience can do safely that your your typical homeowner uh uh sh uh should not do uh one of the one of the good rules of thumb is never treat over 25% of the coverage of the pond that's a good kind of safe way um and then certain herbicides are um more toxic under certain environmental conditions for example if you got low alkalinity and low hardness copper can be very dangerous and it's probably killed more uh fish than any other herbicide but on the other hand copper is a very effective herbicide when used properly so higher alkalinity you can use more copper or you can treat a larger uh area of the pond lower alkalinity you got to really be careful about that but knowing those little you know uh intricate details is is is is the key there yeah it it's it's kind of the case for two if you really if you've invested stuff in it already and you're in it for the long haul because that's the great thing about a pond from owning property or even having a place is it is a long-term return.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:53

You can take lots of people kids families it's not the same as like hoarding your few couple of trophy deer or you know your duck holes or God forbid turkeys shared with anybody. You know how that goes. But so I mean it's such a great dimension for anybody and I've said that forever you know somebody has a it's kind of getting broader in the conversation but I've said forever because you know we're in the land business and stuff too I was like man that's the top thing you ought to do is like you know with some um you know a resource or an asset with what you've done in life. Don't matter if it's just a small place or whatever first thing I would do is try if you could in some way to have some kind of little structure that you can go spend time with the family or keep spending the night company and on the place. That's so much fun with the first thing before that I would even do is build a pond honestly over deer, turkey duck or anything else as far as enjoyment of it. And so I just think that it would be in my point saying all this in a roundabout way is we we have contacts you have contacts it's probably worth getting a professional fisheries manager because I mean you know Barry was such a pioneer in that he did great stuff for us. Now we use you know Robbie Mays I give shout out to Robbie Mays because he does work for me and does a great job and he was you know trained by Barry I believe right Bobby that's right so and you probably know him pond and lake services but it's it's just they're so good they love what they're doing or they wouldn't be doing it and you know you're gonna get the right care because what you're telling us yeah it's a lot more complicated than going to the co-op and spraying something. And you better be careful. I have not to call names of people we all know in here people that just did that you know farm and stuff too and they had a disaster on their hands.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:32

Right. You know and one of the examples and it this always confuses me but like water pH Barry would sat right there and talked about well in the morning it can be one thing and at lunch it can be another and that afternoon even yet another it's yeah all that makes that's right makes a case to have have someone like you to help out.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:51

Well I and yeah and and so there there are there are things that you can do yourself and should do yourself. You get to a certain point where you kind of got to make that call of uh of of you know asking a professional uh for uh for help and you know I the it's interesting when you when we talk about people like Barry and the and the guys over there in Alabama it's a small world y'all know this everybody knows everybody yes communicate and and our guys over here trade secrets with them and the and and vice versa we trade fish with them you know there's there's there's a lot of business across that border you know that that river doesn't stop the business from flowing in both directions uh at all but we learn from that and so when for example when we find out that one adjuvant might work good work work you know work really well on a particular herbicide or one tank mix like tweaking how much copper or diquat or or what you know we kind of share those trade secrets and and um that tends to gradually benefit everybody but your average pond owner doesn't know about all those things and if they go to the you know not not trying to say that this is this is uh is a bad idea but they just go to the uh feed and seed store and say hey I got that old moss yeah what should I do you're probably not going to get the best uh recipe because those folks are not trained in that and and don't have those those years years of experience um and and they probably didn't drive out there and and measure all the things that that we've talked about including pH including uh the other hydrology of the of the pond uh average depth etc that you really need to know to write the right the the proper uh prescription well that's you know that's why we have professionals and extension agents that's right you can you can still go to the feed and seed store and get it and they're very helpful on a lot of things but and get your advice from a professional and then go get the product locally yeah and actually I'm glad you mentioned it you know so I when I was first hired over here actually let me go backwards so we we I'm and and you gotta you gotta bear with me here you know because I I am partial to Auburn because it's my alma mater and so hopefully y'all don't mind that much.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:05

I'm gonna catch brief about it oh really you were you think so it's not our favorite but you love them all we love them all.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:14

Go ahead Jay yeah now that that you know those old folks that that taught me most of them are gone now but um that really you know we we talk about Homer Swingle as being the father of Southeastern Pond management because he was doing it you know before anybody else was and that's when that was a period when the old soil conserv those those of us who are old enough to remember the Soil Conservation Service was promoting the construction of ponds on all farms. Now we fast forward to today those a lot of those places aren't even farms anymore. So we've got multiple generations who have acquired land oftentimes when you acquire land if it's got a pond on it even one that's in really bad shape it's still a valuable resource 100% and it's a whole lot better to renovate that old pond than it is to try to start from scratch and build a new one. So we should take care of those resources as much as we possibly can and the extensions through that whole process going all the way back the the cooperative extension service has been the go-to for for that information when I started when I started graduate school at Auburn I met a guy named John Jensen ultimately worked for John and and I learned what extension work really is from John Jensen working directly with landowners working directly with the industry finding out what the critical issues are and what we can do to address those. And then it becomes a an interactive process where we learn from the landowners on what they try and what works and we incorporate that into what we're doing in our research and in our outreach programs and and we we teach the next generation of students based on that learning process. And I think that's why the land grant system you know that has research education and outreach is is such a valuable thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:06

God bless it absolutely so you know I see it all the time it's such a crapshoot and having a place and trying to grow trees trying to grow deer trying to attack ducks have a dove feel turkey hunt raising turkeys you know every everything you do there's a predator or something nature's trying to take it away from you and and and nothing's guaranteed. I don't care how good you are. But I would say, in my opinion, anyway, the best guaranteed as something like world class on your own place, even in a small place, is a pond producing trophy bass. And if you get with a f but my point is just not go, yeah, Bobby, Bobby likes me a drop me a pen. Bobby says, drop me a pen. Um, if you but you need that professional advice, especially from a biologist, the the extension service probably can't do that part as far as they can help you. It's better than trying to go it alone. But if you go by the formula and you do the pond right and be sure you do these things, it's the closest thing to a guarantee you got in wildlife management. It really is.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:15

Good point. I've heard that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:17

And I'll put I'll put a plug in now since I did one for Auburn. Uh so here at Warren L, you know, our forestry school is integrated. We've got we've got one boss, the dean, and under that umbrella is our wildlife program, our fisheries program, our soils and hydrology program, natural resources recreation, uh, you know, the kind of the human dimensions part of that, all of the um, you know, the remote sensing stuff, the GIS stuff, the uh the the you know, the use of drone technology and all that stuff. All that's under one umbrella. So it's nice it that the way that it's it's integrated. And we, of course, we've got that same model of having the outreach and working with the landowners directly, of teaching students based on what we learn from landowner interactions, and then doing research as it pops up in terms of uh what the big priorities are. And of course, those priorities certainly are changing over the years. And then, you know, this business of a public-private partnership, I think is also critical. That's true in wildlife management and in fisheries management. So, you know, here we are, we try to think of Georgia as the bass capital of the world, you know. And I, y'all, y'all are kind of, you know, Bobby and I talked about this some this business. So, well, what exactly are you even catching when you go out and catch a bass? And, you know, that's that started getting cloudy in in a way, in that are you catching a Florida bass? Are you catching a largemouth bass? Are you catching an integrade between the two? And of course, now there are hatcheries that are providing you with choices. So we've we've got a long way to go. We've done done a lot of cool research, but we've got a long way to go in terms of fine-tuning it. But I think at some level, you know, you kind of got to turn it over to the professionals because they have all the equipment, they have the expertise, and they have the the ability uh to fine-tune a particular resource, a particular pond, and give you what you really want, whether that is that, you know, that trophy, that elusive trophy bass, or if it's those great big fat bluegill, or if it's just, I just want my grandkids to catch fish every time they go fishing. And that and defining those objectives, of course, you guys know that with whatever uh resource you're managing, that's uh it's gotta all start. Because if the if the landowner's not happy with it, then they're they're gonna they're gonna go someplace else.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:33

Correct. So, Jay, think back in your mind. Um today, if a guy was to buy a property, is it more difficult today to get a permit to build a pond? What are some of the headwinds? And is there a buzzword that a guy needs to have in his mind when he goes and talks to the authorities? Is there like is there words that he can say that makes it easier?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:54

Yeah. No question, it's much more complicated process, as is everything you know in the world. But you gotta if you got to go all the way back to when Homer Swingle was doing his research and Soil Conservation Service had a farm plan for every farm in the south, and we're working closely with, you know, those district conservationists were working closely with the landowners on uh trying to get as much out of their land as possible. That's one of the reasons they would design the pond, they would literally design the pond for you, is because that pond gave you a great source of protein on a regular basis, but it also could provide you with irrigation, it could water your livestock, it could, in some cases, uh uh help with um uh by by the by the the installation of dry hydrants if somebody need had a fire and needed and needed to pump water for another for another use. So they're always they've always been a multi-use uh entity, and that you know that's important. But but you fast forward to the time when Soil Conservation Service no longer, well, it changed their name, you know, to NRCS, but they no longer uh had the capacity to help people with the design of ponds. In fact, that just wasn't in their job description anymore. Well, then what? So that meant that somebody else had to help you with the design. And designing a pond, you want you want to really, really be heartbroken. Pay somebody a bunch of money to build a pond, and you go out there after six or eight months and it won't fill whole whole water or it won't fill up. So it's complicated, and that's where engineering comes in. And um, and then and then construction. So contractors, and you know, we got plenty of engineers in the world, they don't all know the right way and the right uh uh uh process to build a sustainable pond. What I worry about sometimes these days is you know, contractors now they can make a lot of money building houses, they can make a lot of money, you know, clearing land. Those contractors that really know how to build good ponds are getting harder and harder to find. So that's becoming a constraint. Then we've got a lot more uh uh regulatory oversight. Um, you know, at the highest level, the Corps of Engineers kind of controls the waters of the of the United States. And at the state level, you know, we've got whatever that environmental protection uh entity, whether over here in Georgia's EPD, that controls the waters of the state of Georgia. And they have oversight of things that affect what's off your land, what goes off your land. So you can't just go and do it whatever whatever you want. And so just like we're talking about if you really, really want to manage the fisheries in a pond, you might need to consult an expert. If you're considering construction of a pond, the best thing you can do is to consult an expert and don't just go to the internet and pick somebody because they got a great website. This is an area where you really need to do your homework. Talk to as many other previous prior customers, if they won't give you a really long list of prior customers that you can go out and talk to, then don't hire them. You really, really want to do your homework and make sure you pick somebody that know that and that's not that doesn't start with the construction phase, that starts with the planning phase. Because the planning of that pond, you only get one chance at it. So if you do it right up front and you you you you you've got somebody that really, really knows that process and can walk you through that process to meet your final objectives, that money is really, really it sounds it might seem like a lot of money when you first uh pay it, but you're really talking about a resource that should last for generations. So that's money really well spent. Yeah, and finding those pond consultants, uh in my opinion, of course, I am a little bit biased now because I work for Fishport, but finding those folks in the planning stages is invaluable. Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:47

Yeah, and to your point, you know, you uh paying for it twice is way more expensive.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:54

Y'all probably know folks. Well, it's kind of like investing in something too. I mean, go ahead and make a smart investment on the front end, you know, buy something blue chip, even it's a little more expensive, so to speak. Because if you do it right with the fish pond, you likely can do it yourself with a little advice. Yeah, right. You know, unless there's like me, the oxen's gotten in the ditch on these invasives. But other than that, most of the stuff you did the the biggest advice outside of this whole conversation I would give from my mistakes is have the discipline to execute what your professional has told you. Right. And especially in the harvest side. Yeah. And it's not real complicated, but it is takes a little work, and you gotta let more people than yourself be willing to fish your fishing hole, unless it's real small. Um that's where I've had trouble, honestly. Just me not having the discipline, honestly, has been my own biggest problem. Well, you gotta recognize it, Toxie. You gotta own it. That's the first step. I've been I got a good support group, Bobby. I can I can give you numbers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:59

So Jay, uh let's would you I'm thinking about man, when I was a kid on the Talapusa River, and that water was so green and so beautiful. But can you just explain what your pond water ought to look like? Because so I think sometimes people get confused and they might think, well, this is so clear, this is beautiful, but that's not what we're looking for here in the south.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

That's right. Yeah. Um and and that that issue comes up a lot. And it and of course, that's where we kind of get into some conflicts because you may have a lake, for example, and uh it might have multiple users. Some people really care more about the aesthetics than they do that trophy bass. How do you meet in the middle? I call it keeping everyone equally unhappy. In other words, um you've got to find a balance. And if you can't push it too far one way, you can't push it too far the other way. Y'all have all heard about folks who have really, really pushed pond systems so far that they had massive disasters, that they had some of these have become very famous, including some in Alabama and Mississippi have become very famous. So you can't push that system too far. Um, you you got to kind of try to find that balance. But what that sweet spot is, is a a system that is um an ecological system where the base of the productivity is planktonic algae, and therefore that green water appearance that you discussed, that bloom that you discuss, is healthy. Is it desirable, and it's something that we try to manage for. And it requires nutrients and nutrients in ponds. Um, this is one of those interesting differences between terrestrial ecosystems and aquatic ecosystems that there are exceptions to it, but the exceptions are rare. So we y'all, you guys know a lot about managing forage, for example, or managing food plots. And frequently in that in ecosystem, nitrogen is a limiting plant nutrient. In other words, more nitrogen means you grow more plants. That is almost never the case in ponds. Phosphorus is almost always the limiting plant nutrient in ponds. So we typically need to think about keeping that phosphorus available, present and available, biologically available, in a sufficient quantity to keep that bloom, not go overboard, not exceed, you know, not not get too far in terms of excess nutrients, because that can cause other types of problems, but not allow it to get so low that the water gets very, very clear, the sun hits the bottom, and we promote the growth of things that we don't want. And so that bloom is is our friend. That is our preventive, our proactive medicine against some of the problems that we've talked about here, as long as we can maintain it. And in I've seen ponds where we didn't have to do a thing. For example, we had fertile pastures that were actively managed. They were lime, the pastures were limed, there was plenty of nutrients going in. The pond got a good bloom as a result of the activities in the watershed around the pond. Those are not common and less common than they used to be. Uh, for example, you'd think, well, the best watershed you could have would be a fully forested watershed, all trees, but those that those ponds that are that have trees in the entire watershed tend to have there's a lot of lot of infiltration for one thing. So they have the hydrology changes, the rate at which the pond gets turned over is different, but they also those that that forest tends to buffer out all those nutrients. So they tend to have very poor uh productivity unless we actively manage them. For example, we need to lime them first, and then we need to fertilize them, and then we need to start watching what types of plants start to appear as a result of those nutrient inputs. And so um that green water that you described, and you know, you mentioned it's interesting because you mentioned the talipoosa. That's a natural system, that's not a pond, but it's naturally productive, and it's naturally productive because of all the things that go on in the watershed and the underlying soil, that good limestone soil that's very, very productive, nutrient-rich, and aquatic plants grow under those circumstances, whether it is in a natural environment or it is in an artificial environment like a farm pond.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:39

You know, our our guys up north, like the you know, folks in Minnesota or whatnot, they talk about, yeah, well, you know, we don't fertilize our ponds up here. And and can you explain about how more how their water is so productive?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:52

Yeah, yeah. You know, the interesting thing about water, uh, and and and I I had I you know, when I was at Auburn, I took because my major professor told me to, uh, and for probably no other reason, but I'm glad I did, I took a soil chemistry class. And um, it was hard because it's chemistry.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:14

I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

But it was really, really useful. And so the the the we talk about this term, you know, my my main professor was was Claude Boyd, and Claude Boyd literally wrote all the books on water quality uh in aquaculture and in fisheries. He's globally recognized as as the the guru, and um he has this definition of water quality, and water quality is the physical, the chemical, and the biological characteristics that determine the suitability of water for a particular use.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:49

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:50

Okay, now you think about that. In this case, what is that that little three-letter word use is the most important part of that. Right. We're trying to use that water to grow fish. Yep. Physical, chemical, biological. So we need to consider all three of those things in terms of productivity. Soil chemistry determines water chemistry. So the underlying soil in the bottom of a pond and the soil in the watershed in the drainage area of that pond determine the quality of that water. So if we go to Minnesota, if we go to um you know, uh uh Louisiana, uh Arkansas, very, very different soils than we have here in Georgia. You know, we got these old, heavily eroded red clay Piedmont soils here in Georgia. They're very, very unproductive. But you go up there to Minnesota and you've got soils that have much higher alkalinity, much higher hardness, much higher nutrient. They are not as um as leached and as eroded. And the natural productivity of those soils makes the uh productivity of the water in the lakes and in the ponds higher. So you gotta, I hate it, but you gotta start with geology and chemistry. You know, I'm a biologist, I care about fish, but if you don't understand that geology and that chemistry and the hydrology, that's the other piece to this. Because how much water, you know, understanding the water budget, when does the rainfall come, how much rainfall, the timing of delivery, and and and how much dilution we get from it, that's the other piece that really, really matters. So they've got a much different environment physically, chemically, and biologically. And so they have a very different response in terms of now. The other part to this is temperature because their growing season is very short, our growing season is very long. So you have to factor that in as well when you kind of take taking a set, like you know, some of those guys up in Minnesota, they I'm I've fished with some of them. They say, Man, I see those pictures of those great big giant bluegill that you catch, and I just I'd give anything for that. And part of the reason that we're able to manage for big trophy bluegill here is the growing, taking advantage of the of the growing season uh and the and the the behavior of those bluegill in in terms of the the role that they play uh in a pond ecosystem.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:20

Interesting stuff.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:22

I got very interesting. You got a question? Yeah, I actually have a question.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:25

Oh, yeah, you're gonna let Dudley ask me a question.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:27

I guess we have time.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:28

So uh you you've hit on this a little bit. Um, you know, some places, like I'm I'm picturing some of these subdivisions, like near where my parents live, they keep them mowed all the way to the edge. It's it's almost like you're required to. Uh some old ponds, like out on, you know, some your granddad's place or whatever, may be overgrown to where you can't even access them. Uh you mentioned earlier, like forested, uh, where you get runoff from forested land, it it may not be as productive. Uh, but what is the happy medium and and what are some things people can do besides uh just going up and mowing to the edge every time? Like can you can you hit on that some?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:14

I'm glad you gave me a chance to maybe back up a little bit on that. To be honest, I'd rather a fully forested watershed over everything else. And the reason for that is I know that that is going to be a stable pond environment. Right. Okay. I can manage the things that I need to manage for the fish. Right. When stuff starts happening in that watershed, right? It's taken out of my control and it's in somebody else's control. And I've seen so many frustrating examples. I have a dear friend here, he's a retired veterinary and he paid a lot of money to get a pond built, and it was doing a great as you know, as he went through that honeymoon period, everything is great. He's got growing big bass, and you see these amazing pictures. And about 12 years out, somebody bought a big chunk of land up the creek in that watershed, slicked it all off, put in a subdivision, and now the full the the entire upper third of his pond is about two inches deep and it's filled with silt. And so he's got to pay for the maintenance as a result of what other people are doing. Man, you know, I've not just because I work in the forestry school, but I'm here to tell you wood is good.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:30

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:32

And and wood is good if you're a bird, and wood is good if you're a fish.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:37

Makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:38

But so, like, even instead of like having St. Augustine all the way up to the edge, you could have like native grasses, wildflowers, uh struggle a lot. Forest. Yeah. It's nice to notch out a few areas to fish. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:53

So you want to have some stuff clean on a fair amount of bike to because I love to walk the bank and fish.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:59

It's just like the well-intended landowner. You know, they they get on their tractor and they think Bush Hogan, everything is good. You feel like you need, you know, you need to do something important. But uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:11

You guys, you guys have probably seen and or said this yourselves, maybe. Nature is messy. Nature is not neat. No, you know, so and I look at a pond and I see somebody running a mower anywhere near that pond, I just cringe. You know, I I I like messy because I like natural. And um, the ideal what we call that riparian zone, that buffer around the edge of the pond, you're right, it'll have some places where you can step on down, uh, but they don't have to be mowed. You there are low-growing sedges and rushes that are easy to move around that will establish good root systems and prevent any kind of erosion, and you can fish right amongst them without any problem. Um the the the that buffer of the of those native, beneficial native aquatic plants, I'm sorry, riparian plants, those marginal plants, uh, can really, really be an asset in the long run uh in terms of some of the issues like invasive aquatic weed control uh that that we've been talking about. I I like them messy. Now that there's an exception to that. Pond dams, um, in order for them to be sustainable, you don't want any big mature trees ever to grow on your dam. So you don't want any woody, you kind of got to keep keep an eye on that woody vegetation and maintain mow if you need to with a bush hog, uh, whatever you got to do to keep that woody uh stuff from establishing on the dam.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:45

I got a problem with that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've got an old, old, old pond on our place, and it's got giant trees all over the levee. I don't know what we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:56

Well, maybe he can tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:59

I don't yeah, yeah, what would you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:02

Yeah, well, don't cut them down.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:04

Yeah, yeah, I don't want to cut them down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:07

What what and so what you got to do is really keep a close eye on that on the the the health of that tree, but also the root structure and whether or not it is starting to compromise the soil in that dam. Because you know, and I don't know if y'all have ever gone through this, but the way that a dam is constructed is is with a with a clay core right down the middle. Key, yeah. Down deep at the water level. And then you build more material on top of that. And what's at the surface is not nearly as important as what's in that clay core in the center of that dam. And you don't want to do anything to compromise or alter that clay. That's where you get into trouble with things like uh like muskrats, which can burrow into that clay core or other things. Like if you get a you know, you get a big storm and it lays that tree over and it pulls that taproot, it pulls those roots that are penetrating down towards that clay core, that's when you start getting into problems.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:10

I wonder if you could terminate like one or two big trees a year and just leave them standing to where they, you know, the roots kind of rot. Um and then slowly bring it back.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:24

This this one's doing that. There's you know a tree or two that dies on it every year, and big ones too. But I mean, this thing's been there since the I mean probably 40s. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:33

That's a tough one. Eventually, eventually you're gonna start to have some problems because of those roots rotting. The good thing is you don't necessarily have to drain that pond to repair it.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:45

Sometimes you can pull the water down, sometimes you can cut a trench so that you don't have to rebuild the whole dam, repair that one section, get that good clay core re you know, reconnected, and and then um and that's where you know they you can do that. Uh for example, older ponds where you got to replace the drain structure with a siphon system, that's a good opportunity to do that kind of work.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:09

So, Jay, let me ask you this, and we'll we'll wrap this thing up here. We'll give everybody a chance if they got another question. But if you're a guy and you're you've been managing for big bass, trophy bass, what's the lifespan of a bass? And it at some point, you know, guys always we're we're turning some of these the bigger fish back, and it at some point is that fish is just not gonna be there anymore. What what's that time frame?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:36

Of course it depends.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:37

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:39

We knew that. We knew that. Yeah, but but you know, the the reality of it is, um and and I think some of your previous guests have kind of touched on this book before, but I'll I it's it's worth talking about again. There's two ways that a bass gets big. You know, it gets big because it's really, really old. Or it gets big because it had good genetics and it grew really, really fast. And those are not the same fish. And y'all know that. You've probably seen you know, a big old bass that's got a great big head, but it's kind of lean in the body.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:15

But you all sometimes you you know the ones that kind of shape like a football, and you think, man, that thing is growing at an amazing rate. And its body is very robust in relationship to his head. That's the one that's growing fast. You want those fast growing fish. Those big old fish are not really contributing much, and and as you say, you may throw him back and he may die that same year, so he's not really that beneficial to you. So um, with that in mind, and uh as as as as harsh as this sounds, you're kind of on a there's kind of this ticking clock where a six and a seven and an eight-year-old bass in the southeastern United States, in in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, is a really old fish. A really old fish. Because if you think about it, uh say you had that honeymoon period in that brand new pond. When were you catching those big fish? What age was that pond when you were catching those really good fish? Yeah, probably four years into it. Yeah, four, five, six, seven, eight years. See, so so that that's kind of the way you need to think about it. Because yes, that fish might live to be nine, ten, eleven, twelve years old, but he's not re he's gonna get big because he got old, not big because he's still fast growing. So for trophy bass management, um, we want those fast-growing fish because we want to find that small percentage of the total number of fish in the pond that are that have got that special combination of good genetics and the and the the habitat utilization in terms of forage, that they're growing fast. And and so um with that in mind, you kind of got to be thinking about a probably a much shorter time cycle than most people do with respect to the age of a fish.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:09

Lane, you ever caught an eight-pound bass? It would change your life if you did.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:14

I mean, yeah, I think it'd be some good fillets that would come off of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:20

Yeah. All right, look, let's uh, Richie, why don't you take over and add we got a trivia question that we designed just for you, Jay? Uh uh. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:28

Yeah, so uh trivia is brought to us by our buddies at our peanut patch.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:33

We love those boiled peanuts. Yeah, we do. Yeah, especially when you're fishing. Jay, you like boiled peanuts?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:38

I love boiled peanuts.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:40

All right, we gotta send him a can.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:41

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:42

I wonder if you could catch a catfish on a boiled peanut. 100%.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:46

I guarantee you can. Yeah, we should try that percent. Guaranteed. That's a great that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:51

All right. So we had a listener on Apple Podcast who uh listened to uh episode 462, our episode on the 16 gauge. Oh Cypress Tea Ranch. Uh left a review. Uh I thoroughly enjoyed the 16 gauge show. My dad was a 16-gauge guy, and when he passed, I now uh am the caretaker of his treasures. I take it I make it a point each turkey season to help with the help of Apex Ammo to take a turkey on our farm with his vintage 16 gauge 870. I'm currently in the process of turning it into a turkey gun that I intend to give my grandson on his 16th birthday.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:29

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:30

I've made the barrel threaded for a turkey choke and I'm having it dipped in fall foliage.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:36

Look, that's gonna be a good looking uh 870 six days.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:42

Say Richard, let me do it. Ba ba ba ba. Yeah yeah. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:46

Yeah, so Cypress Tea Ranch. Yeah, Cypress T Ranch.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:49

Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:50

So uh yes, so we have got a trivia here for you. You know, we're talking about pond management here, so it's a great question. This is a question.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:57

Well, this is Jay's question, right? Jay's question.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:59

I thought I answered him when I need it. You can answer the Jay. Everybody at the table is your help. Phone a friend.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:06

I don't think he's gonna need any help.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:08

I don't think he needs any help. Yeah, yeah. Great question for pond management here. Yeah, yeah. What state has the second most amount of counties and why?

SPEAKER_06 1:40:18

What in the heck, Bobby? Just wait.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:21

Just wait.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:24

Second most second, the second most amount of counties.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:29

So Texas being number one because it's such a big state, it's got the most counties. What state would be second?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:35

I I'm gonna say Georgia. And explain why. Georgia has 159 counties. Oh my god. And the the the explanation that I was given when I moved here was that um if you think about how far a mule or how far a wagon would go in a day, it was about you know 20 or 25 miles. And so they would they would put a little town about a about the traveling distance of a mule or a wagon. And eventually those towns, those little municipalities all wanted to have their own autonomy. And so they would establish all these little bitty counties, 159 of them, and um, and that's how many counties we have today, even though some of those counties have uh very few people in them. Very interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:30

That's exactly right. So you had to be able to ride somewhere in half a day, be able to ride to town to ride back.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:36

Isn't where isn't Georgia like where all the rejects got sent? It was the from England prison or something, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:43

Yes, it was a criminal colony, that's right. So here's a here's a trivia thing. I ran across the other day. I just looked it back up again so I could talk about it briefly since you brought it up. So looking at when Mississippi was the 20th state to like join the Union or whatever in the United States. 22nd was Alabama, of course, they're always behind us on everything. Right, of course. And then you started looking, it's like even down behind them. Michigan is less, you know, back behind Alabama, some of those states up there. Well, number one is Delaware, duh, Pennsylvania, New Jersey. But Georgia was the fourth state in the Union, way down in the South. I did not know that, or I forgot if I got taught that in school. That's actually pretty cool. Because then it's Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland. You know, they jumped down to Georgia for the years. Lots of roots. They had lots of roots. I guess they just put all the criminals in there. Anxious to bring the criminals into the union, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:34

But not to be confused with the criminals. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:38

Well, that was pretty cool about Georgia. That is cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:41

Well, and I thought the the amount of counties just I I gotta say, I was this better trivia question than when I thought about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:47

I thought it'd be Virginia or you know, so Alabama's North Carolina? 67 counties. We got 82. We got 82.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:54

It's a pretty simple number. You know, Georgia is also the largest state east of the Mississippi River. Ah, I didn't realize that either. We have a bigger landmass. We uh, you know, you kind of think about Alabama and Georgia as kind of being mirror images of each other, but Georgia's a lot bigger in terms of landmass.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:11

Mississippi and Alabama got to be pretty close. I think so. Alabama's a little bigger. The old twin states. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:17

Well, Jay, we've enjoyed talking to you. Oh, yeah, sure. Can we talk to him again? All day long. We've got to do it. Have him again. Have him again. I've got a half a dozen questions we didn't even get to. Bobby's trophy fishing. Y'all didn't let me talk.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:29

Yeah, Bob Dudley didn't even get a question in.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:32

Finally at the end. No, it was I was sitting here listening and learning. He's got such a knowledge base. So we kind of focused on weeds, but I'd like to get him back to talk about fish because he knows a lot. And the story of the eels, but uh, you know, we don't have time to go on that today, but there's just some really fascinating stories that he knows about. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:50

Yeah, we hadn't, yeah. We got lots more to talk about.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:53

Yeah, so uh Jay, a guy could follow you on Instagram. What's your uh what's your Instagram handle?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:58

I think I you know I made it up because my students insisted it's something like shellfish, but I'll I'll I'll send it to you. Uh but if you look up uh Jay Shelton, I think you can find me. Uh but I think I put something like Shell Fish. He's a lot of fun to find.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:15

Obviously, you didn't hire Bobby as your marketing agency. He's pretty clever there. Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:19

He needs to come over here and go fishing. I'm trying to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:24

You just hit the point of this whole podcast. He's leaving right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:29

Say that again.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:30

We had a big challenge ahead of us because of circumstances on catching shoal bass on a fly. But I we you know, I really, really want him to come back and catch some great big giant shoal bass on the fly.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:41

Yeah, I do too. That's something I want to do. And I so guys, if you can you can check out fishsport uh.com and see all the things that they do. There's a lot of good uh pond management guys, but uh, but uh but Jay and Les over there, y'all do a great job. And so look, um, is there no?

SPEAKER_03 1:44:57

Y'all go out there, listen, build a pond, take care of your pond. You get so much enjoyment out of it.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:03

Yeah, or you know, there's a lot of places with small ponds on them. You can, you know, with a little work, you know, you can you can really turn them in.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:09

We need to talk about fish attracting structures. There's a lot we need to get less.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:13

Oh, you never run out of cool stuff to do, and the fun of having some is working on it all the time. 100%. I agree. Lanny, we I can't wait for you to get some big fish up there. Me neither.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:21

I don't worry, I will not let you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:25

You will not drop a pen.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:26

No, he knows where it is. All right, gosh. Well look, we appreciate everybody listening. The the new TV shows are running. Uh Richie. Yeah, Richie.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:34

Yeah, they're coming along good. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:37

Viewership's up, listenerships up, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:40

Tuesday nights at uh at 8 o'clock Central. I'm sure Jay watches every Tuesday. What time is that in the Eastern time? That's 9 o'clock.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:48

What are we gonna do if they change the times?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:51

Well, we go with it. Run with it. Yeah, run with it. It does air like five different times a week, though. That's the prime airing.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:58

So I was talking about daylight savings. Don't forget to sign up for the Rambo e-bike giveaway, too, because that's coming up pretty quick. So in bottom lands.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:07

Yeah, you could put a you could put a rod holder on the back of that thing and screw squirt scoot around a on a on a golf course. That gives me an idea of fishing.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:16

I can think of a spot on public land that would just make it so easy to get to.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:20

And food plot season is here. So check out plantbiologic.com. Pre-order trees on uh native nurseries, wildflowers and grasses. Yeah, got some new species coming out. Dudley's gonna be talking about soon. And don't forget to give us a like and a follow.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:34

The planting season is not at hand. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:37

All right, guys. It's been it's a hot time of year, but talking about fishing is a lot of fun too. Kill you off a little bit. We enjoyed talking to you. You're you're uh developing knowledge, yes, sir. It's amazing. Yep, been a lot of fun. Yep, we'll do it again.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:51

Yeah, thank you, Dr. J. Dr. J.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:53

Looking around the room. You like that. Who is Dr. J? I think he played basketball. His name is Dr.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:58

J Shelton. Yeah. Yeah. Way cooler than the other Dr. J.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:02

There you go.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:03

All right, guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:04

Thanks everybody for listening. And you know, share this one with somebody. It's a good one to get some information out there. So maybe your buddies can build you a big old bath pond. Richie, you're doing a good job. Thank you for zooming with him and getting all that hooked up. Thanks, Bob. Yeah, we appreciate it. Why don't you say goodbye, Doug? Goodbye, Dudley.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:18

Get us out of here, Richie.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:19

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Game Keeper Podcast. And be sure to tune in again. Subscribe to Game Keeper Farming for Wildlife magazine, and don't miss the Mafio Properties Fistful of Dirt podcast with my good buddy, Ronnie Cut Strickland.